So what about it? Say you take all the Kenyans, Ethiopians, etc. and place them smack-dab at sea level, where they would remain generation after generation. How long before their times/performances come back "down to earth"--or sea level, as it were? Get it? "Down to earth." Hah! Anyway, any guesses out there? How many generations would it take? I say, at least like, 10. What say you?
It isn't because of the altitude. (and no, it is not because of drugs either).
When what? are you saying its cause of hard work? I guarantee its mostly altitude. Look at Ryan Hall born and raised at altitude and he is doing great right now.
Didn't work for Abdirizak Mohamed,Shadrack Kiptoo, Sharif Karie, Lopez Lomong, Bernard Lagat, "Tuscalooskenya", or other African runners here so I say nothing would change.
Even if they stay in East Africa it won't take 10 generations to beat them. Sooner or later those nations will become developed enough for their children to become overweight, lazy, computer and TV addicted non-athletes like the rest of the World.
If you "guarantee" it then there probably isn't much point me responding? However, I have trained there a couple of times, and feel relatively well qualified to speak on the subject. In my opinion it is because success breeds success. Looks at the British runners in the 80s. One runner breaks through and then other people start to believe they can do it. For example, Coe knows Ovett is human so he doesn't fear racing/training like him. That is the same thing that is happening in the USA now. You mention Ryan Hall, but he is not the only runner to break through at the moment(even if he is arguably the best). The thing in Kenya is that the confidence has snowballed to such an extent that there is now mass participation in the sport (in part due to few other opportunities). If everyone in the USA was training we would produce more great runners as well. At the end of the day everyone is free to believe what they want. It is very convenient to believe that we can never beat the Kenyan because they are genetically superior... but it simply is not true.
"It is very convenient to believe that we can never beat the Kenyan because they are genetically superior... but it simply is not true."
That's a controversial statement. Where is Sir Lance-alot, he is an expert on running genetics (and everything else)
Im inclined to think thousands of generations,"Selecting" at altitude, would HAVE to have a physiological effect. Probably conducive to distance running. Obviously not thee sole variable.
Google: "breeding trait study orange", should be the second article on the 1st page "uc santa cruz press release". If you have time, its worth checking out. It would indicate the plausibility that your answer could be One generation. Remote maybe, but plausible.
In my field of work, Horn playing. Countless studies have shown it takes 8-10 generations to breed out the inate lameness We have and for the offspring to play things like the drums or cymbals.
But most kids love to run when they are young, so the genetics traits required for running are extremely common.
They'd actually get faster. Their performance at altitude would diminish, but their performance at or near sea level (where most races are held) would actually improve. It's the rule of specificity.
Economic development is a much greater threat to East African distance running superiority. Fewer people running & greater economic opportunities elsewhere means professional distance running becomes less attractive. Over the course of generations, distance running becomes no more popular over there than it is here.
I am not Sir Lance-alot but....
I believe that Bengt Saltin did a couple of studies where he found that Kenyans had a specific enzyme that deals with lactate turnover and production. In another study I think they found that Kenyan runners have ankles with approximately 400 grams of less flesh than their danish counterparts. Making it easier to move their legs...
I don't think he ever proved that these were genetic but it is still interesting.
Bengt Saltin was the bomb
Disclaimer: Severely hungover, But I'll try.
Assuming the premise is true, "kids love to run" (which I aint sure it is,but anyway). Lets say thats true, it doesnt disprove what I said before. Now lets say East Africans "loved" to run from childhood AND were at altitude for thousands of generations, this would strenghten the selection over time. Anyway, I think the variable of the actual RUNNING itself could have been strengthened through many generations of "running" being an integral part of daily life/success hence survival/power/breeding. The more goats you can herd theory. In the East Africans case, possibly via foot.
Braincells misfiring...shag a lap
I don't agree with Saltin's conclusions. He obviously set out to proove that Kenyans were genetically superior, which is why Sir Lance-alot loves him.
You do realize that quite a few of the East Africans were NOT born at altitude, don't you?
Guide Dogs,
Without giving away too many training secrets for free, I'll say youre probably wrong.
Something interesting: In baseball, from my understanding, It is believed that a Pitcher who trains using slightly heavier balls and slightly lighter balls will gain more velocity than a pitcher using standard balls, everything else being the same.
science friction wrote:
"It is very convenient to believe that we can never beat the Kenyan because they are genetically superior... but it simply is not true."
That's a controversial statement. Where is Sir Lance-alot, he is an expert on running genetics (and everything else)
HERE I AM! That didn't take long, huh? (skuj would be proud). I am not a true expert on anything nor have I ever stated I was. I, just like 99.9% of the posters on here, just play one on letsrun ( and as far as being an "expert on...everything", you might be thinking of flagpole or malmo, but not me). But seriously, I never said I was expert on genetics of any kind. I ONLY stated that:
1) based on a few studies I read, it certainly seems true that people whose ancestors come from one region of the globe have slightly different genetic make-ups than people from other regions.
1a) AND....that some of these differences might certainly lend themselves towards being advantageous in distance running (or sprinting).
2) based on the absolute dominance of certain ethnicities in certain events (people of west african heritage in the 100m/200m, and people of east african heritage in the 5000/10000 and 12k x-c, etc), it would be appear that certain peoples are born to have a higher % of world class athletes in certain events than other ethnic groups. It is hard to make the "cultural" or "environmental" argument when many of these great athletes moved to other countries and developed their greatness outside of their native country.
3) I think many people overstate the "environmental" argument as relates to the East African dominance in distance running. YES, being poor is a motivation to work hard at your sport, and YES, not having as many other opportunities for success is another reason that many east africans might be willing to work hard at running to make it. BUT....
a) many, many great runners have come from solid middle class backgrounds. How did they become so great without poverty driving them?? One does not need to be poor to be driven to succeed. In fact, several top Kenyans actually came from fairly well off families.
b) People on here seem to quickly forget all of the NEGATIVES associated with being born in East Africa over the last several decades: starvation, malnutrition, diseases (malaria, yellow fever, AIDS, typhoid, etc), extreme poverty which requires children to work at a young age for long hours, violence, etc. People seem to greatly exaggerate the pluses and romanticize the idea of growing up poor in east africa as a runner's paradise. How many potential Gebs or Bekeles starved to death in a famine? How many potential Tergats or Kipketers grew up in families so poor that they had to work on the farm from a young age and never got to consider other choices? Remember, Geb's Dad tried very hard to stop Geb from trying to become a runner. If Geb wasn't so headstrong, he would never have become the Greatest. In america, if you want to try running, your parents will probably let you. In short, I think the concept of extreme poverty being the perfect environment to develop hordes of runners is bit exaggerated and people overlook the negatives associated with that environment. I think the negatives at least balance out the positives.
That's all I've ever said. And I've NEVER said that hard work, smart training, and guts couldn't beat greater talent. And I've NEVER said that super talented distance runners are ONLY born in East Africa. No, they are born all over the place (look at Ryan Hall or Mottram), but it just appears to me (and many others ) that more of them are born in East Africa.
tigranya wrote:
Didn't work for Abdirizak Mohamed,Shadrack Kiptoo, Sharif Karie, Lopez Lomong, Bernard Lagat, "Tuscalooskenya", or other African runners here so I say nothing would change.
How many of them were born at altitude? Not sure where you're going with that argument. Also, I'm talking generations of being at sea level. None of those that you mentioned qualify. And even if they were born at altitude, they'd still be born with certain advantageous adaptations passed onto them from previous generations, generations which did benefit from being at altitude over millenia. Heck, maybe even bone and tendon structure are influenced by altitude as well.
I think it might also have something to do with that enzyme thingy that another poster brought up, or something similar. Could it be largely because of altitude that adaptations such as the enzyme/buffering ability develops in the first place?
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
science friction wrote:"It is very convenient to believe that we can never beat the Kenyan because they are genetically superior... but it simply is not true."
That's a controversial statement. Where is Sir Lance-alot, he is an expert on running genetics (and everything else)
HERE I AM! That didn't take long, huh? (skuj would be proud). I am not a true expert on anything nor have I ever stated I was. I, just like 99.9% of the posters on here, just play one on letsrun ( and as far as being an "expert on...everything", you might be thinking of flagpole or malmo, but not me). But seriously, I never said I was expert on genetics of any kind. I ONLY stated that:
1) based on a few studies I read, it certainly seems true that people whose ancestors come from one region of the globe have slightly different genetic make-ups than people from other regions.
1a) AND....that some of these differences might certainly lend themselves towards being advantageous in distance running (or sprinting).
2) based on the absolute dominance of certain ethnicities in certain events (people of west african heritage in the 100m/200m, and people of east african heritage in the 5000/10000 and 12k x-c, etc), it would be appear that certain peoples are born to have a higher % of world class athletes in certain events than other ethnic groups. It is hard to make the "cultural" or "environmental" argument when many of these great athletes moved to other countries and developed their greatness outside of their native country.
3) I think many people overstate the "environmental" argument as relates to the East African dominance in distance running. YES, being poor is a motivation to work hard at your sport, and YES, not having as many other opportunities for success is another reason that many east africans might be willing to work hard at running to make it. BUT....
a) many, many great runners have come from solid middle class backgrounds. How did they become so great without poverty driving them?? One does not need to be poor to be driven to succeed. In fact, several top Kenyans actually came from fairly well off families.
b) People on here seem to quickly forget all of the NEGATIVES associated with being born in East Africa over the last several decades: starvation, malnutrition, diseases (malaria, yellow fever, AIDS, typhoid, etc), extreme poverty which requires children to work at a young age for long hours, violence, etc. People seem to greatly exaggerate the pluses and romanticize the idea of growing up poor in east africa as a runner's paradise. How many potential Gebs or Bekeles starved to death in a famine? How many potential Tergats or Kipketers grew up in families so poor that they had to work on the farm from a young age and never got to consider other choices? Remember, Geb's Dad tried very hard to stop Geb from trying to become a runner. If Geb wasn't so headstrong, he would never have become the Greatest. In america, if you want to try running, your parents will probably let you. In short, I think the concept of extreme poverty being the perfect environment to develop hordes of runners is bit exaggerated and people overlook the negatives associated with that environment. I think the negatives at least balance out the positives.
That's all I've ever said. And I've NEVER said that hard work, smart training, and guts couldn't beat greater talent. And I've NEVER said that super talented distance runners are ONLY born in East Africa. No, they are born all over the place (look at Ryan Hall or Mottram), but it just appears to me (and many others ) that more of them are born in East Africa.
++++===+++++_______________________________++++++???+++++++
Hmmm, not bad, but I am worried that you are becoming too rational Sir Lance-alot, this is not good for the letsrun message board. We need more controversy.
I agree that the issue of poverty is too much exagerated concerning talent coming out of East Africa. I have been to Eldoret(Kenya) and Nandi district region in particular and to my observation, this areas are Kenyan agricultural bedrock...there is alot of tea, corn and dairy farming ...Mark the fact that Kenya is number three exporter of black tea in the world and makes upto 30% of fresh flowers in all European market. Infact among Kenyan people themselves the steriotype as to why this particular tribe of Kalenjin are fast runners is they say its because of drinking a lot of milk (calcium) hence also their very white teeth. Remember the kalenjins live in highlands that were target of colonial masters...If there are few good athletes who had poverty being the main reason to excel I would say its a few cases but all in all, these people are not poor as people here may conclude.
Check this link on Kenya
30000 runners took part in the recent Great Ethiopian Run in Adis Ababa, most of the slow runners probably live in the city and are not very fit, even by non African standards.
The best runners (I'm guessing) probably come mostly from farming communities, and have a much better standard of living, but they are still poor by our standards.