Re: AC/LT Training Zones

sorry the above chart was hard to navigate. it should be better here:

1500m 5k Recov. Pace AC Pace LT Pace-----------------------------------------------6:10 23:00 12:00-11:30 10:50-10:20 8:446:01 22:30 11:45-11:15 10:37-10:05 8:325:53 22:00 11:30-10:58 10:23-9:51 8:215:45 21:30 11:14-10:42 10:09-9:37 8:105:37 21:00 10:59-10:27 9:55-9:23 7:585:29 20:30 10:43-10:11 9:40-9:08 7:475:21 20:00 10:27-9:55 9:26-8:54 7:355:13 19:30 10:12-9:40 9:12-8:40 7:245:05 19:00 9:56-9:24 8:58-8:26 7:134:57 18:30 9:40-9:08 8:44-8:12 7:014:49 18:00 9:24-8:53 8:30-7:58 6:504:41 17:30 9:09-8:37 8:15-7:43 6:384:33 17:00 8:53-8:21 8:01-7:30 6:274:25 16:30 8:37-8:05 7:47-7:15 6:164:17 16:00 8:22-7:50 7:33-7:01 6:044:09 15:30 8:06-7:34 7:19-6:47 5:534:01 15:00 7:50-7:18 7:05-6:33 5:423:53 14:30 7:35-7:03 6:50-6:18 5:303:44 14:00 7:19-6:47 6:36-6:04 5:193:37 13:30 7:03-6:31 6:22-5:50 5:073:29 13:00 6:48-6:16 6:08-5:36 4:563:21 12:30 6:32-6:00 5:54-5:22 4:45

one more try

1500m Best5k BestRecovery PaceAC PaceLT Pace6:1023:0012:00-11:3010:50-10:208:446:0122:3011:45-11:1510:37-10:058:325:5322:0011:30-10:5810:23-9:518:215:4521:3011:14-10:4210:09-9:378:105:3721:0010:59-10:279:55-9:237:585:2920:3010:43-10:119:40-9:087:475:2120:0010:27-9:559:26-8:547:355:1319:3010:12-9:409:12-8:407:245:0519:009:56-9:248:58-8:267:134:5718:309:40-9:088:44-8:127:014:4918:009:24-8:538:30-7:586:504:4117:309:09-8:378:15-7:436:384:3317:008:53-8:218:01-7:306:274:2516:308:37-8:057:47-7:156:164:1716:008:22-7:507:33-7:016:044:0915:308:06-7:347:19-6:475:534:0115:007:50-7:187:05-6:335:423:5314:307:35-7:036:50-6:185:303:4414:007:19-6:476:36-6:045:193:3713:306:48-6:166:08-5:365:073:2913:006:48-6:166:08-5:364:563:2112:306:32-6:005:54-5:224:45

Confusing me...

If by LT you mean lactate threshold then wouldn't that be the pace you can hold for an hour all-out? Or about 15k-halfmarathon pace? If so then that table looks a little off. 15:00 5k = 5:42 LT? 14:00 5k = 5:19 LT? The pace you have posted for LT looks more like a "marathon effort" pace which is fine and dandy and runs at that pace will also improve the lactate threshold. I think maybe we've also discussed this on the board though. I just want to make sure no one is getting confused by the nomenclature.

Alan

These LT's look like perfect marathon paces to me.

That's what I was saying, but it doesn't fit the "standard" definition of LT.

Alan

What does AC pace mean?

Instead of following a chart, why not just find the fastest pace that gives you that weightless, effort-free feeling. There's your threshold.

You can use the chart as a reference point - if your threshold pace is a lot slower than the pace you could run for about an hour, you probably need more time developing your ability to run at that pace.

But don't feel you have to hit x:yz pace at all costs on a threshold workout. If you're forcing the pace, it's too fast. Besides ... weather, other recent workouts, hydration, nutrition, allergies (and so on) will make your threshold pace different from day to day, anyway.

Zontar, the thing from Venus wrote:

... if your threshold pace is a lot slower than the pace you could run for about an hour, ...

Correction: if your threshold pace is a lot slower than what the charts say you should be able to run for about an hour, you're probably weak in that area of fitness.

It's probably best to go by heart rate or use a lactic acide meter if you want to do some sort of LT training

This is defining LT as marathon pace. In discussions with jtupper, I think that his "LT" is where your ability to remove lactate is surpased by its production, and it assumulates.

As far as "this LT" goes, lactate is prodcued in copious amounts, but to the point where it can still be removed w/o build-up.

AC pace is aerobic conditioning pace, defined as 65-80% of MHR. This is ideal long run pace, and the pace where you get the most "bang for your buck" in terms of time on your feet vs. gains in aerobic capacity.

excuse my poor typing. it was supposed to read "accumulates."

trackhead wrote:

This is defining LT as marathon pace. In discussions with jtupper, I think that his "LT" is where your ability to remove lactate is surpased by its production, and it assumulates.

As far as "this LT" goes, lactate is prodcued in copious amounts, but to the point where it can still be removed w/o build-up.

AC pace is aerobic conditioning pace, defined as 65-80% of MHR. This is ideal long run pace, and the pace where you get the most "bang for your buck" in terms of time on your feet vs. gains in aerobic capacity.

Where are you getting these numbers from? I've never seen anything that fit the range these charts suggest.

they're from Run With the Best. In the book is lists performances from 400m to 10,000m and links those the LT (marathon) pace.

The RWTB software takes performances and gives very good approximations on Recovery/AC/LT paces, and can be adjusted to the individual athlete (they offer 3 tiers in determining the level of stamina an athlete has: Level 1 is a beginning runner; Level 2 is a well-trained HS/collegiate or club runner; Level 3 is a nat'l/world class runner.)

For this reason, the chart will offer differnt training paces for an American high school sophomore who runs 2:00 for 800m and a 30 year old marathoner who also runs 2:00.

Do you know if Tony ever finished the Long Distance program for CD?

No, I don't know if he ever put software out.

Vigil does something similar in Run to the Top. However, to agree with the others--the LT paces seem SLOW if anything. I'm somewhere over 17 for 5k, but I can hold 6:20 pace for at least an hour under control, with HR under 160. It's all an experiment of one, but still.

If it's Benson, then the LT pace is exactly MP pace. I used to run under him. He recommends LT run right at 85-87% MHR using a heart rate reserve method.

These numbers look more like the ones off the CD for MD programs than those out of the book.

Running LT workouts shouldn't kill you, they should't leave you feeling drained.

You should finish knowing that you could have gone faster or longer.

If you're best true 5k effort is 17:00, then you're LT is going to be in the 6:20-6:30 range. And you should be able to hold that pace for "atleast" an hour and be well under control.

The confusion comes from your use of the term LT. Most everyone else uses the term LT when describing workouts in which the pace is about the pace you could hold for an hour. This is the "true" threshold, the one that shows up on a graded exercise test as the dramatic increase in blood lactate. Marathon pace can be as high as 97% of LT in elite athletes and around 93% for mere mortals. Absolutely nothing wrong with running workouts at marathon pace. In fact in terms of fatigue, recovery, and repeating the workout again I'd say it's a better pace than the "true" threshold pace. A runner could easily build up to the point where he can go at marathon pace for 30 minutes or so during every run or at least most(5) runs of the week. Try doing 15-20 minutes at "true" threshold everyday and it won't last long.

Alan