HS CC Coaches: do you incorporate tempo/threshold training?

In high school, I remember our team doing something like 2 x 10 min. at a park (don't remember how much rest we got, maybe 5-10 min.?). I believe this was intended to be a threshold workout.

I've always wondered why my coaches were reluctant to do anything more than 10 min. with our team. I guess your reasoning above (~too hard for the slow guys) explains it.

I felt that adding tempo runs was a turning point for me in high school. I started adding 20-50 min. tempo/progression runs (~on my own), as recommended by another school's coach, and I instantly dropped 30 sec. off my 2 mile (and won State in the mile and 2 mile that year).

Could you have different workouts for the faster kids vs. the slower kids? Have them run in groups of similar ability?

I have my team do threshold runs using the Daniels method. I have my less experienced athletes do a 20 min run at their T Pace and the older more experienced athletes do a 30 min run at T Pace. This is done after a 15 min warm up, dynamics, and strides. We do thresholds on grass that is flat. I use their 5k race time to determine their pace using the Daniels charts. It's very easy to do. It's a tough workout, but one that I find all my runners can do, from top to bottom. This workout is also very beneficial for increasing one's mental toughness. I find that my best runners will get over 5 miles in for 30 minutes. I don't know where you got the 20-30 seconds slower than 5k pace from. I either don't remember that or you misunderstood what Daniels was talking about. (I probably just dont remember.) To me that sounds more like VO2 max pace. Remember the lactate threshold is just at or below the point where you body is consuming all the lactate is can produce, and you don't want to go over it. Personally, I feel these workouts are very important for distance runners, especially as the distance gets longer. I run these workouts all year long. I also subscribe to the build and maintain philosophy.

Sorry if that was hard to understand. It's the end of the day and I am tired.

I've found that the newer kids (and perhaps the kids who are less committed to the sport) handle the "cruise interval" type of tempo work better.

For the slowest kids I've had them run as short as 800m per interval, but at threshold type paces with a very short rest. Jack Daniels covers this pretty thoroughly in his books.

I've had kids with different experience levels, but similar ability levels run together around the track. The less experienced kids might just run a couple of laps, and then when they're to take their break they turn around and jog reverse direction around the track until the main group meets them again at which time they join back on the train. The most experienced kids may take no breaks, and kids in between might take breaks each mile or so. Depending on how you arrange it you can also accommodate different ability levels in the same sort of way.

All of these seem like physiologically sound training.

I've made Excel charts of the distances of the loops in the subdivisions in the area of our school (based on mapmyrun.com). We also do these intervals on loops at a small local park to get off the streets. With these charts I have instant and compete aprox. threshold times my HS runners should be running based on their current 5k races + 25 sec. I base the rest period of aprox. 1 min/k run.

With this information I then can make up a chart with Go times in each box of all the runners. True, I usually only have 7-9 runners (small school were soccer is king) with some on the same level. But I know when each should start the next interval. Since I'm the only boys and girls coach this method requires a constant consentration on when one finishes and when another starts. It can get hectic at times but I aim for each one to have a total running time of between 20-25 min.

We only do this once a week during the season plus another distance day with a 20-25 min. continuous threshold run in the middle. We do other things on the other days but these are our 2 hard days. Add one race per week and this seems to be working well from the fastest to the slowest.

Just thought I'd add my comments to the discussion.

I agree with the above comments and would say it is definitely worth your energy to construct a way to teach your kids how to run at threshold. For adolescent 5k runners, it might be the most important type of training in their development, in addition to the long run.

In my experience tempo intervals are the best. If you plan a 20min tempo (equivilent to 5k) its more likely the kids will not run it properly. In other words in my years HS kids are not disciplined enough to do a proper tempo run. What I have learned is turning that 20min tempo into a 4x1mi @ 80-85% of 5k pace with 1-2min. rest is by far more beneificial.

They generally hit the paces like they should. I had a 15:29 5k kid one time and had him do these at roughly 5:30 pace with 1min rest. It was a challening workout for him by the end and he said himself (along with others) that they felt they became stronger as they did it. As opposed to a straight up tempo the kids fell off pace, fell off late, or too fast too early and most said they felt no benefits from it. Regardless if there was any, psychologically they felt it was a waste therefore it is a waste. That year i had a 15:33 kid and he could not hold anything faster than 5:50 per mile on those tempos (avgd. out). Usually go out in 5:25, come by the next mile in 5:30-5:35ish than drop off to 6:00 or slower the third mile.

Remember these kids still have a long ways before they reach their ultimate peak, don't burn them out now. Focus more on developement and preparing them for the future.

I strongly believe that tempo work is the single most important component of high school training because it strengthens the weakest part of any young runners physiology. Consistent tempo work throughout a four year hs career, imo, is the most efficient method to "strengthen" a young distance runner. Having said that, I've found that long segments of threshold work can leave a runner tired for as long as a week. Considering that most HS kids will race during that time span, you can fall into a cycle of overworking an athlete. Keeping with cruise intervals is what I have found to be the safest method for applying threshold work. Depending on ability level, our athletes this week will run either 1000, 1200 or mile repeats at threshold pace, all on a 1' interval. 10% of the weekly volume is a good number to start with, but some kids may not be able to handle that much. Our two best kids are on 60 mpw, and race in the low 16's for 5k. They will do 5 x mile on about 5:35, with a 1' interval. At the end of this they shouldn't feel tired, only stressed. We have these great long flat dirt roads which allow us a soft surface.

Hope this helps.

a curious high school coach wrote:

I have found that tempo runs have greatly benefitted my own training, and I would love to successfully implement it with my high school runners.

I find that only my top varsity runners can successfully execute something like this (boys at low 16s/girls at low 19s for 5k PR). Other runners, even my second tier varsity, have trouble maintaining a sustained effort of this type. They either go too slow or too fast (and of course slow way down by the end). I coach 40-50 runners; I don't have the resources to differentiate workouts too much, and I simply have a hard time justifying a workout that only benefits about 10% of my runners.

Thanks!

First, I think you have to be patient with it. Tempo is a hard concept and a lot of young runners don't have a good sense of pace. I've done hundreds of tempo runs and still f it up by going out too fast every now and then. I would really stress that running right on the goal time is important (and give them all goal times, I know it's a lot of kids but you can do it) and have 400/800/1200/1600 splits for them so that they can try and stay right on. As others have said doing cruise intervals such as mile repeats (4x1600 with 90 seconds recovery), or 1000s is a good way to build up. We do workouts like that, then maybe 2x10 (or 12 minutes) then we work up to 1x20 and keep adding length as we go.

I've got sub 20 5k runners who are good at it, and sub 20 5k runners that miss it almost every time, and I've got 26 minute 5k runners who can hit it and 26 minute 5k runners who are clueless (obviously I coach girls). But even the ones who might go out a little hard or way too slow benefit from the workout they just don't get maximum benefits. Of course I also have some 28-30 minute 5k girls who can't really tempo run at all but generally all type of running is tempo running for them so it's good for them anyway.

If you run say 4-6 tempo type runs in a fall XC season most of your kids will start understanding it by then. Then if you run another half dozen or so at the beginning of indoor track they'll get that much better at it so by the time next fall rolls around (or summer training) your returning runners will know what they're doing and they'll be able to help the newer runners.

We did a 4 minute drill in high school. Run on the cross country course. Blow the whistle to start. Runners run approximately race pace. Blow whistle when 4 minutes are up. (runners not allowed to wear watches) Repeat 5 times with each runner having to get a little farther each time.

You will end up with about 15 minutes at LT and a sense of pace to beat the teammates they are supposed to but not to run too fast in the beginning so you can't get farther each time. The runners also get used to running fast on the grass.

rippy cripple wrote:

We did a 4 minute drill in high school. Run on the cross country course. Blow the whistle to start. Runners run approximately race pace. Blow whistle when 4 minutes are up. (runners not allowed to wear watches) Repeat 5 times with each runner having to get a little farther each time.

Assuming runners were at different locations on the course, they didn't have a problem hearing the whistle?

I start my season with a 1 mile TT to see where the fitness level is. It is rough, but it give me a good idea.

I then do 1k repeats at Daniels T pace with little rest. I monitor my kids closely and make sure they are not going too hard. The first week I do like 5x1k at T pace with 2 min rest. As the season progresses, I adjust their target T time based on race results, but always tell the kids that "feel" is more important than "target time". I have found that breathing rate/pattern is a good way to identify proper tempo pace (this comes from Martin & Coe's "Better Training for Distance Runners")

Then, over the next few weeks, I increase then length of the repeats but not the total volume much. Example: week 2 would be 1k, 2k, 2k, week 3 would be 2k, 2k, 2k, week 4 would be 1k, 2k, 3k, week 5 3k 3k, all of these have 2 min rest.

Once a kid can do 3k 3k at tempo, I start to do longer stuff. I have an 8k out and back course that I use where the kids run out at a comfortable pace and then tempo it back. Some of my older kids can do 5k out comfortable and 5k tempo back. I even had one stud who could do 6k out comfortable, 6k tempo back. These tend to be draining workouts (mentally and physically) and I almost always do my tempo on Monday. I only do these big ones every other week later in the season and pull back a bit on my Wednesday hard workout the weeks we do the long tempo. The odd weeks would have a lighter tempo on Monday and then we hammer on the Wednesday workout.

not a coach wrote:

We did a 4 minute drill in high school. Run on the cross country course. Blow the whistle to start. Runners run approximately race pace. Blow whistle when 4 minutes are up. (runners not allowed to wear watches) Repeat 5 times with each runner having to get a little farther each time.

Interesting workout. I like the idea of using a whistle, kind of "old school". Reminds me of my H.S. track days, mid-1960s, where my coach would use whistle ( one, two or three blasts to determine intensity). Some kids and fellow coaches today scoff at the idea as being old fashioned, I guess. What's the interval between the 4 minute runs?

Hi Steve,

Just wanted to say yours and Ron Daws training in Self-Made Olympian got me down to 2:22 marathon back in 1983. I still have the book and it is pretty worn. It was a great motivation for me back then and still is.

I now coach h.s. runners and have for 20 years and we do a number of whistle type fartleks and the beginning of the season. I definitly am old school with those kind of workouts.

I also use Bowerman type workouts with my kids, we will run a mile at tempo then 4x400@ race pace then another mile at tempo. This works great for for our athletes and does not kill them by the end.

Just my two cents worth.

Monty

We do threshold work virtually year round.

Tried the Daniels method and just found it didn't suit our system. We now build up to longer and longer threshold runs and follow Irv Ray's run with the best system. I felt the Daniels approach is solid, but will leave many of your kids under trained. We'd rather push the envelope a little.

1) Only kids who are sub 19 in 5k do our threshold runs, and only then if they are in high school. I rarely have our middle school runners do it, even the studs,...instead I opt to go with longer intervals with them.

2) Always on a xc course over hills. Always well marked, kids can check their pace every 400 meters.

3) We start at 2 x 1 mile with a short active rest, then 3 x 1 mile, then 4 x 1 mile, then 2 x 2 mile, 1 x 3 mile, 1 x 4 mile, up to 1 x 5 mile. With kids who are experienced and solid we may go to as long as 50 minutes based on total volume and training age. It will take a long time to progress from 2 x 1 mile to 1 x 5 mile, perhaps 1 - 2 years depending on the athlete. We always look long term, and have a six year progression in place where kids are moved up through levels.

4) Pace varies significantly over the distances and also experience. Pace is also pretty specific. +/- 8 seconds a mile for us. When they go out too fast, we will stop them at the 800 or mile and wait for them to get back on pace and let them resume. It doesn't take too many times of doing that before they understand that you want a specific pace!

5) If kids are struggling in the workout, we pull them off, just stop them where they are in the middle of the workout.

6) We often tell kids on the longer runs who hit the pace through 3 miles to just maintain the same effort level, but not worry about the pace.

7) We've found it's far more effective to run below the fastest threshold pace, then to really struggle to maintain a pace that's too aggressive. It took almost a year to figure out what paces worked best for our kids on different runs.

When you finally nail your system, and I'm a big believer in finding what works for you...you'll have wonderful results. Our kids finish feeling like they are chomping at the bit to run fast, and more often than not they do on the meet days!

monty5 wrote:

Hi Steve,

Just wanted to say yours and Ron Daws training in Self-Made Olympian got me down to 2:22 marathon back in 1983. I still have the book and it is pretty worn. It was a great motivation for me back then and still is.

I now coach h.s. runners and have for 20 years and we do a number of whistle type fartleks and the beginning of the season. I definitly am old school with those kind of workouts.

I also use Bowerman type workouts with my kids, we will run a mile at tempo then 4x400@ race pace then another mile at tempo. This works great for for our athletes and does not kill them by the end.

Just my two cents worth.

Monty

Monty, glad you could use the training advice for your 2:22 marathon in '83. That sure seems fast NOW, doesn't it. Yes, Ron's book is somewhat of a cult classic these days. I've stopped loaning my copy out. (Never got them returned!) A friend generously gave me his copy to keep when he heard that I did not have one. Rest assured I will not loan this one out. I'm coaching HS cross country (Assistant) at a large school in the Twin Cities area and I'm always looking for advice/input/ideas on training. We use tempo running, but I'm amazed at how many interpretations there are for "tempo". When I trained (and you, also), it seems that we did not have all of the terminology that is used today. We ran easy, medium or hard!! Of course we did fartlek, intervals, ladders, etc., but it seems that today there is a tendency to have a formula for every workout. Sometimes I think that it gets overly complicated. It's still "one foot in front of the other"; mileage is still the key I think. P.S, glad to hear that you still use the whistle!

My HS coach was successful at implementing a tempo workout into our weekly workouts. He started them in August and they varied by week. Starting with 4x1 mile repeat, then 2x2mile repeat and then 1x4 mile. Something along those lines. Everyone on the team was able to do them, especially having experience with the shorter ones.

Steve Hoag wrote:

not a coach wrote:

We did a 4 minute drill in high school. Run on the cross country course. Blow the whistle to start. Runners run approximately race pace. Blow whistle when 4 minutes are up. (runners not allowed to wear watches) Repeat 5 times with each runner having to get a little farther each time.

Interesting workout. I like the idea of using a whistle, kind of "old school". Reminds me of my H.S. track days, mid-1960s, where my coach would use whistle ( one, two or three blasts to determine intensity). Some kids and fellow coaches today scoff at the idea as being old fashioned, I guess. What's the interval between the 4 minute runs?

We used a loop on our course that would bring most of the runners pretty close to where we started so hearing the whistle was never a problem.

As for the interval, it wasn't a set time but you could get a feel for when everyone was ready. I do remember doing heartrates and wanting to get back down to 120 before the next run.

Back then,(1979) we didn't have the why behind the workout, except that we knew it worked. Now we know that 5 repetitions will give you approximately 15 minutes at LT (one minute to get there and 3 minutes at LT for each 4 minute drill). We ran 2.5 mile races so this matched the time of our race 12:30-15:00.

The key to the workout is that you want to get farther every time but not get beat by your teammates you normally beat when you race.

Tempo runs are hard to learn correctly, and even harder for younger runners. On my HS team, it was kind of a rite of passage that the coach would take the top 5-7 guys and run with us to demonstrate the tempo runs. He never called it a tempo run, he would just say, "no one passes me" and then increment the pace and tell people when they should drop off. Towards the end, he would allow the 1 or 2 guys who were actually faster than him to pass him. That guy was a good coach --- too bad I only had him for 2 years...

If there's any question about high school coaches using daniel's like tempo training, i think it has been answered.

However, I would like to say that as a coach, one of your many goals should also be to introduce your young runners to this very important component of distance training. Sure the slower kids or even the faster kids might not be able to sustain the set pace (if you are using daniels), but that should be beside the point. I think somewhere in the Formula, Daniels says that tempo training is likely more beneficial mentally/psychologically than it is physically. Teaching your young runners to develop a sense of rhythm and tempo and learning how to get into the 'groove' even when the pace is hard and difficult to maintain is very much beneficial. Just because they might mess up the pace or not really get anything physically from the workout doesn't mean that you shouldn't attempt to make them understand how important tempo running is in the "long run". No pun intended.

I coach with this in mind: at some point in their future running careers in high school I want a runner to be able to go out on a 3 mile tempo run and nail every half mile split - based off of daniels' formula. So when they are young I introduce cruise intervals (half mile repeats with short rest) and make sure they understand they are to run at a specific pace and all they are to pay attention to is how their body feels when its going a certain pace. Then as the half mile's become easier, I lengthen out the distance to something like 2000m x 3 and everything is about pace. Then when they can do that, they go on a 20min tempo run and they then understand how to handle the pace and how not to break up their rhythm. By the time they are seniors they can (without a watch) run 5 miles (consecutive) right on their 'tempo' time. It's amazing to watch them get ecstatic about the fact that they can run 'hard' and still control their effort - within seconds of what they are 'supposed' to run.