3:20 marathon for beginner?

Ramp up to about 50 MPW (not all at once) and 3:20 should be no problem, as long as "Winter" doesn't mean November. Get into longer races this fall so you can track your fitness, practice your gaol pace, and don't get a case of the yaya's and blow through the first half in 1:30 and you'll be fine.

I know a guy that does 25 mpw and ran a 3:10 marathon...thats because he cross trains like crazy. What else does your weekly exercise routine include???

89greg wrote: My question: Is it reasonable to think I could run a 3:20 marathon, or is that goal out of whack?

A 15k at 7:05 projects to roughly 3:21-22 for the marathon. However, that conversion assumes proper training and good race conditions. Running 30 miles per week isn't really ideal marathon preparation, and so many things can go wrong with marathon prep that it's relatively rare for all the stars to line up properly in any case.

If I can draw from personal experience, I ran my debut in 1992 when I was running that kind of mileage. I had recently run 15k in 1:01, which is under 7 minute pace (more like 6:33-35), and I struggled home in 3:35.

In your debut marathon, with minimal training, I would suggest that you can expect to run about 20-30 minutes slower than what the race calculators will tell you. So 3:40-50 is probably a safer bet.

That may sound pessimistic, but I don't know anyone who has raced to their marathon potential in their debut. Well, maybe Ryan Hall came pretty close, but he wasn't running 30 mpw.

Sorry to dash your hopes, but I'm trying to be realistic for you. Good luck with it anyway.

I'm upping my mileage each week, should peak around 45 miles or so in the next eight weeks. As far as my cross training goes, I'm still cycling a day or two a week (and was racing up until a week ago.

I agree with Pete, particularly the part about the stars rarely lining up. I had four marathons about 20 years in my past (3:06 debut, 2:53 PB) when I trained for and ran two of them last fall at age 48. I was running 5Ks consistently around 20 flat; the calculators would have said sub 3:20. I ran 50 mpw for 5-6 months, a handful of 20s, and many16 to 10 milers.

Still, I ran 3:39 in early september and 3:30:59 in December. I also ran a 1:31 flat half a month before that second marathon. Turns out I'm a much better half marathoners than marathoner. The calculators are of limited usefulness in certain cases, I've decided, and predicting marathon performance is one of them. Be conservative with your goals and train well. Pace conservatively. It's very hard to optimize the first time out.

That should, of course, be "many 16-18 milers."

Longs runs. Increasing time on your feet. That's the key.

At least on the bike you can "coast"- no such thing in a marathon- you have to keep your feet moving for over 3 hours. It's a huge difference. Be prepared- both mentally and phsyically. Huge difference.

I think it is doable, so long as winter does not mean November - I agree with K. Stone on that.

Long runs are the key. Get lots of 16 mile runs in.

I run 3:30s on about 25 mpw training and am in my 40s.

More so than many other races, because so much can go wrong, you do need the stars to line up on the day of the race, you need good weather, you have to be healthy, be in a good frame of mind...the list goes on an on. 26 miles is a long way and a lot can go wrong during the race.

The key for you will be to arrive healthy at the start and have in the needed long runs.

I think it will be harder than some here let on, but is doable.

It's not November, but it is in mid-December. Enough time?

Thanks for all the feedback.

Plenty of time. Just do not underestimate the difficulty of the endeavor. Get plenty used to being on your feet for 2 to 3 hours.

I think it is possible, but look at Lance. He barely broke 3 and said it was much harder than he expected. I don't think 45 miles per week is enough, I would recommend at least something north of 50. In a debut, there will be surprises - you have to have a good morning routine. When do you need to wake up to be able to drop the kids off at the pool before you start running? (I generally wake up 3-4 hrs before to eat and "move") What will you eat before the race? Have a hydration/nutrition plan for the race going into the race that you best mimicked in your 20 milers. (Personally I ignore water until I can't stand the "fitness drink" on the course to keep some calories and electrolytes coming in). Most important of all don't start out any faster than 7:40. Your overall marathon pace should feel easy to slow at the start.

You did not say if you were a Cat I sprinter or a roady with good climbing. The more the latter, the faster you should be in a marathon. I went the other way (ran and then raced the bike (just Cat III) for 3-4 years. I will make general comments first, then tak on the age side.

I ran a marathon at the end of November after starting serious running in August at age 25. Since HS I had run some and ridden some, but not consistently and when I was younger I was not good enough to make the varsity XC team at a big California HS, although I matured late and was inherently much better several years after HS, training aside. I ran 2:52 after getting to 100 miles/week as quickly as possible and then fluctuating up and down around 90/week. (and I ran 21.7 in 2:20 after 6 weeks) Hence I was surprised how modest Lance's debut was -- he clearly was not interested in running 100mi/week.

At age 40 I tried to come back for a marathon after 10 years of running some, mixed with racing for several years (bike) then riding hard at the bike club-level (50-150/wk) and running 20-40mi/week. Starting consistent work in March I was Almost ready for Twin Cities when the problem that caused me to punt at age 30 (plantar f.) cropped up. I was aiming for 2:45 and was hoping for 2:40.

I think that 3:20 might be quite modest for your athletic level, depending on how efficient you are (Armstrong looks awkward running in the ads on TV). Often runners that ride and riders that run end up working at a pretty modest pace on the 'other' sport. You should try to hit the same calorie output (corrected some for duration: riding is usually longer and hence a little lower effort level) in the two.

That probably means that you need to start training yourself to run faster. 7:05 pace is not too quick, you should be able to get closer to 4min/km (6:27), which is only 9.32 miles in an hour -- I used to do many of my semi-long and long runs at this pace or faster. You should turn over more slowly running (90/min running hard -e.g., 10km race -- and 85/min normal pace.

As a Cat I you should have been able to burn 1000 calories an hour or more. At 145 pounds and reasonable efficiency you should be at 100 calories per mile which translates to 10mile/hour -- you will not be able to convert completely because the muscle differences but since running requires supporting the body rather than sitting, you get some extra calorie burning there.

The age side (and weight) will both play a role. The age will make you a couple percent slower but not much more. However, it will also lead to a longer period to increase your mileage, and lower mileage overall. I would recommend continuing to throw in rides both on off days and as some real workouts. The workout side is that you will only be able to do hard pace hour runs occasionally and similarly with 15 - 20 mile runs. You can supplement this high-level/long duration work by doing similar work on the bike.

Also make yourself as smooth running as on the bike -- do not do the running equivalent of 'pedaling squares' (as Phil Liggett might say). Also, run with people that are longer-term runners and who are a little faster than you. You may end up picking of their stride pattern if it fits your physique and it will push you some.

Finally, I alway have trouble with the notion that long runs, designed to prepare for marathon distance, being run at several minutes above intended race pace. You are not training your body for the right event. I think this advice comes from knowing that your average Joe runner cannot maintain that effort and commitment and will get discouraged. I always did one long run faster than marathon pace (adjusted for conditioning level) which was often the first 20 miles of a marathon where I might go through 20 miles a minute faster than race pace for a marathon (e.g., a 2:37 marathon target would lead to 2:00 20mile time and thus a 1:59 target 20-miler. In such a race setting with water and road control you will generally be able to run faster than on a regular training run (also ease back both before and after).

Run, run fast-pace tempo workouts, do not consider yourself part of the Runner's World class of runner - you are much better than that coming off of Cat I status.

I would like to state, for the record, that I am not taking the marathon lightly. Just in recent weeks as I've upped my mileage, I've really come to respect just how tough it might be to run a good time in a marathon. I certainly don't have a Lance attitude, thinking I can get by on my cycling fitness with just a few 13 miles runs to prepare for 26.2

26mi235, you bring up a great topic...running your long runs at a considerably slower pace than marathon pace. If my marathon pace is 7:40, I find it almost impossible to run at an 8:40 pace...it feels like I'm almost walking, and my stride feels cumbersome and inefficent. I've wondered why you wouldn't run your long runs at or near your marathon pace, so that the actual day wouldn't be such a shock to the system.

By the way, as a cyclist I'm more of an all-arounder. Not a great sprinter by any means. Good climber, better time trialist. I'm about 6'1, 160 pounds.

... I've wondered why you wouldn't run your long runs at or near your marathon pace, so that the actual day wouldn't be such a shock to the system.

How did you feel after the 15K at 7:05? Was that a race or was it a tempo run? My 15K is about 6:20 pace and when I run 7:20 training pace, generally feels pretty comfortable not too fast not to slow. On the long runs, I would suggest maybe running first half slow, then pick it up towards marathon pace towards the end.

It was a race, but it was last November. At the time, I was only running once a week...maybe two runs in a good week, and the 15k was my longest run of the year. Given all of that, I felt like I could not have gone much faster.

You can nail 3:20, easy. Just don't ignore the race day advice. Many a marathon goal time is lost in the porta potty

There are nuances on what I wrote, picked up by the poster just above. There are variations that probably are best to use first, such as starting at normal pace for the first several miles, then revving it up for a longish period, and then ease back for a bit before quiting. Also, I did not say running all your long runs this way; I did at least one at pretty good pace. One year I ran a bikeathon at 2:45, about 10 minutes slow than I probably could have raced at that point, although it was faster than the shape I thought I was in at that point. The pace was really pretty comfortable until about 23 miles, where is became a grind, although I had not rested as much as I should before and I did rest after to consolidate my training gains. Note, however, that running a marathon if you are in shape with enough long [and fast :>)] miles is not that hard for the first 15-20 miles unless you are really running on the edge, and I was not good enough to be doing THAT fast of racing.Given your size, 6'1"/161, you are carrying a lot more weight than I was and are above a come rule-of-thumb for marathon/distance runners of 2lbs/inch. You will probably slowly but steadily lose weight because of the differences of running versus riding, although I mainly climbed so I continued to lose a little when I switched to more riding/racing from mostly running. One thing that I found is that running a lot, especially fast, tended to depress my appetite and made it easy to steadily lose weight in the early stages of starting to run marathons. I could enhance this by drinking first before eating because I would be thirsty before being hungry. However, do not over-do this as you need to eat well. Also, I think that Armstrong left himself room to run faster next year, so he really targeted hitting 2:59. He is also a real driven guy, so if he were going to really optimize he would have to work much harder and he did not want to be in that situation, so he makes it a part of his overall 'objective' -- awareness and fundraising for cancer research (and keeping himself present).Good luck with it and let us know how it goes. By the way there have been a number of threads that will help you know how fast you could run a first marathon (I like 4.666 x 10km time or 10km pace + 10%, but these only work for those that are doing enough base work for the marathon).

89greg wrote:

I've wondered why you wouldn't run your long runs at or near your marathon pace, so that the actual day wouldn't be such a shock to the system.

Someone else pointed this out, but I will echo it, running your long runs all at marathon pace is much much harder than you may think.

Just try a couple 16 + mile runs at that pace and see how your recovery goes.

Getting to the starting line is important, and getting there in good shape ready to race is just as important.

MP runs tak a lot out of you, especially at the longer distances and they do not leave much time to recover.

I tend to be a 3:20-30 marathoner, and know a few guys faster and many guys slower, I don't know anyone who runs all their long runs at MP.

Try it, see if it works. My guess is it will not.