Running form of Borchers

I wondered that too. He seems to carry his hands a little "limp-wristed" and floppy.

His whole upper body wobbles back and forth. Not the greatest form, but he ran 4:03 so apparently it is effective. Hubers on the other hand, has great form.

Yeah, but I remember watching Steve Magness (who ran 4:01 in high school) and cringing at this form over 1600m. Borchers eventually may be a stellar 5000m runner and beyond. Hubers, a more fluid runner, still lost, but I like the potential in a Hubers moreso than in a Borchers. What a phenomenal race by both, however. Absolutely full of guts that last 100m... Borchers is tough.

imo centro>borchers

close call though.

I say this with all due respect for Borchers talent - he is an amazing talent. But in watching a video of his recent race, he looks as if (as hard as it is to believe for a 4:03 high school miler) he is not all that fit. He has little of the clipped, efficient turnover that almost any top level runner obtains with any reasonable and consistent distance training, and it does lead me to wonder just how good he can be if he puts in a steady stream of training. Again, I think it unfair to be critical of a high school student, and I make this comment in a positive vein (his potential is considerable and too much hype is put on high school performances), but I was surprised in watching him. These comments are also from the perspective of running under 4:10 in the mile in high school 30 years ago, and whatever my talent limitations were (greater now than I thought then existed, that's for sure), I was fairly efficient and at high level (for high school) level of fitness. If I were coaching him (I don't have the technical knowledge, let's make that clear) I would from an attitude perspective inform that the freshman year is simply for getting adjusted to and academic life training consistently - aiming (??) for 70 or so miles a week (??) except during specific racing periods - and letting it simply happen. Query what 15 mile runs (easy) every 7 or 8 days would do for his fitness - when combined with a steady diet of other training.

On the other hand, Centrowitz may be the most impressive runner coming out of high school since Alan Webb (who I watched win his first varsity race of any consequence in winning our local district 3200 in 9th grade in 9:30). What a patient, efficient runner - clearly he has advantages with his father and mother (and sister) to guide him in the mental aspects of it all but his accomplishments are his own - he struck me as being easily capable of running 4:25 pace for 5k - which puts him in a class of very, very few high school runners ever. And he has more leg speed than most. And he doesn't need to chase any more fast times in high school - he will have plenty of competition where he is going and it would not surprise me a bit to see him run 13:20-25 next year - not at all.

Good race to watch on VDO. Hubers is very flowing and efficient. Yes, Borchers does flop around like crazy. Both are extremely talented runners.

Only time you get a real good look at his form is the last stretch, and he was obviously tieing up badly. Give the kid some time.

A very well written post!

It was a decent post, but I think he went a little overboard on the parentheses.

It is not exactly the same, but his form reminds me somewhat of Zatopek.

I really think that these kids' running form is a huge indicator of their potential for future success as internationals.

Watch WCs or Olympics, everyone in the finals is smooth, efficient, light footed with great biomechanics. No one is flailing around to world class times these days. The speeds they are racing at demand top efficiency.

As much as people like to bring up Zatopek, nobody running like Zatopek today is going to smell a world class race. Not to say that he shouldn't be legendary for his training innovations and dedication, he clearly is.

Alot of these kids that put up strong HS times can do it off of athletic strength or greater physical maturity than their peers, more so than from world class distance running talent.

A perfect example is the 2 mile at this same NON meet. Forys and Centrowitz have put up very similar, outstanding times, but Forys has no chance of a strong international career, whereas Centrowitz might. Forys is more heavily muscled, thick legged, and runs with a clomping, heel-stiking gait. Any success he has had comes in spite of these biomechanical inefficiencies.

Centrowitz, by comparison, is noticeably more smooth, clipped, and efficient than the people around him in that race, just watch the video available online. His good biomechanics and light footed gait give him the opportunity to someday run on the world class level, and more importantly, to complete the high volume and intensity training that is necessary without breaking down.

In my years of coaching, I've seen lots of big, strong HS kids with sub-optimal mechanics who could "muscle" their way to great times, sometimes far below 4:20 or 9:20. Unfortunately, these types of athletes never go on to truly national class, and definitely not world class. Most have mediocre college careers.

Not to pick on someone like Forys, as i'm sure he's an outstanding kid, but when you see someone who runs like that, I belive you're seeing him at the top of his game compared to his peers, who will pass him up in future years as they all mature.

aesthete - i do agree that some kids muscle their way through to good high school times - but some of them also improve, too. One key to getting efficient is simply putting in the distance - this doesn't mean maniac levels of distance - but consistent training interspersed with some truly long runs - the kind wejo and others refer to often.

And the most important factor in improvement is frankly body weight. Lots of runners mature in college, and they put on weight - not weight that is harmful in the overall health sense - but it is just inescapable that this is a sport that by and large demands that you be very lean and efficient. And college (with beer and crummy diets) is often not the place to take of one's self. This of course doesn't mean starvation.

I think the Arkansas guys will attest to their coach's dedication to this principle - it is that important.

centro's form may be smoother than forys', but to describe forys as a clomper…i don't know about that.

I'm very curious as to how the hell would you know what kind of shape Sam is in and what kind of training he does?

Dude is a serious racer with tons of confidence and balls. You can coach smooth, but all Ralph Earnhardt was reputed to have told Dale Sr. "son, they can't put it in you and they can't take it out."

You're one of those dudes who thinks too much about the sport and will never really get it.

I don't think his form slows him down at all. In fact, anyone who can run 4:03 in high school against only high schoolers probably have a quality style of running...Just a thought...

aesthete wrote:

In my years of coaching, I've seen lots of big, strong HS kids with sub-optimal mechanics who could "muscle" their way to great times, sometimes far below 4:20 or 9:20. Unfortunately, these types of athletes never go on to truly national class, and definitely not world class. Most have mediocre college careers.

Yeah. Perfect example is Chris Solinsky.

Bill Rodgers thinks you people are idiots.

"I've seen lots of big, strong HS kids with sub-optimal mechanics who could "muscle" their way to great times, sometimes far below 4:20 or 9:20. Unfortunately, these types of athletes never go on to truly national class, and definitely not world class. Most have mediocre college careers."

Peter Snell "muscled" his way to some times far, far, far below 4:20.

odseesus - I think you are making my point - strong runners with less than optimal efficiency - and Snell was always an ungainly and bit inefficient runner - became far more efficient and effective because of the volume of training he put in - unusual at the time by any measure for an 800M runner and certainly more than ample for a miler.

And I find that Solinksy is exceedingly efficient - with lots of forward efficient push to his stride - particularly when he gets rolling during the last 1000 meters of a race. I would not confuse being bigger (and Solinsky is simply bigger in terms of body frame) with being "inefficient" and muscling ("pulling" was the term Igloi used) through a competition. The key is to get efficient and relaxed as one can - different runners vary in acheiving that at different times. And it typically takes some degree of consistent training along with slugs of long distance from time to time.

By the way, it seems to me Forys is an efficient and strong runner - very much so for a high school runner. He was just up against a high school runner who appears to be one of the most efficient and patient (and that is rare at that level) I have seen. Forys can and likely will be a great runner - he appears to have that kind of talent - but like all runners meeting the challenge of stepping up to the next level, will need to consistently and patiently train to get there.

And Borchers is a great athlete - and certainly worthy of great promise. His recent run reflects not a lack of talent, but actually the opposite - he doesn't appear to have the kind of distance background (and thus efficiency) of many other high school runners, including the fellow he beat. This isn't a knock on him - but rather an intelligent query as to what he might do if he gets a slug of consistent training along with a good lifestyle and diet.

And to the extent the comment about not having run successfully was directed at me - this might have some truth to it. I did run a measly 4:08 mile in high school, and in so doing given the advantage of time I in fact realize that I likely muscled my way through it a bit and would have been far better off in the long run to take a patient, non-transitory approach to running - emphasizing consistent distance, training, and above all else, lifestyle and diet.