Masters Track Events-Are They Cheats?

Perhaps your jaded view of human nature is the correct observation. My focus is more personal, so I don't dwell on the guy in front of me; on whether he cheats or is more athletic. It is important to me, that I try to improve my skills to the point, that I just may have a shot to improve on my master PR of 4:53.

Ghost of Igloi

Ghost of Igloi wrote: I don't dwell on the guy in front of me; on whether he cheats or is more athletic. It is important to me, that I try to improve my skills to the point, that I just may have a shot to improve on my master PR

I'm with you 100% on that. I can't say I've ever given a thought in a race as to whether anyone was dirty. I never even think about the subject except when I read about it here. However, I do think that a significant proportion of the population will always be willing to bend the rules, and that includes masters runners equally - in my view - to other sub-groups of the population. I can't think of any compelling reason to think otherwise.

AK-49 wrote:

Didn't one of the Russians get busted last year (grandma's women's winner?). Then of course we had Eddy a few years back. So there is incentive. Nevertheless, it's probably pretty rare because even the top masters runners don't make THAT much money.

You'll note I specifically said "current" top masters runners. As for the Russian women, I don't personally know them. I do know a few American masters women - Sylvia Mosqueda, Michelle Simonaitis, Ceci St. Geme - and I'd feel very comfortable vouching for them.

As a few posters have pointed out, we masters athletes treat running as a hobby. We have lives outside the sport - speaking of which, my son is impatiently waiting in the other room for me to come help him with homework!

How would one know if one was cheating?? Probably the biggest thing would be a huge performance improvement ??

(remember that Irish guy? He had a huge improvement and then admitted to taking PE's)

As an example: I noticed that a Calif 45 yr masters recently ran a 14:45 5K and a few months ago, at Carlsbad, he ran a 15:27. If this Master's runner consistently ran in the high 14's or low 15's over the past few years, like SoCalPete, I would say that he is prob legit. If he has consistenly be a 15:30's 5Ker then pops a 14:45 Id be a little suspicious. (of either a short course or PE's) I don't know anything about this runner and what his times have been so I am not accusing him, it is just something to look out for.

With all due respect, WADA Police, I was the master who ran 14:45 (last July). I also ran 14:49 3 months ago. And at Carlsbad, yes, I slowed down - but to 15:11. However, after running a 24:50 road 8K two weeks earlier in Virginia Beach, I got food poisoning on the flight home (well, okay, on the layover in Dallas). Couldn't run worth a darn for a week. Frankly, my legs weren't up to snuff at Carlsbad.

In the past year, I've also run 14:59, 15:14, 15:04 ... and then 16:19 about 4 weeks back! Though that last one was on a long course. Oh wait, I also ran a 15:54 at the beginning of February, only to come back one week later to post a 15:08 at the Redondo Beach Superbowl 5K. Good grief, I've probably run some other 5Ks, but I can't remember them all (middle-aged brain). But the point is that my times can be all over the place. I can race at 15ish or sub-15 pace for most races, and then all of a sudden it's like I'm 45 years old! ... Oh wait, that's right, I am!

For the record, the 45-year-old masters runner who ran 15:27 at Carlsbad is Jeff Ambos - who has consistently run between 15:10 and 15:30 over the past 5 years. He's joined David Olds and my masters club - The Fluffy Bunnies - for next fall's Club Nationals.

My point: your post illustrates a good reason not to accuse people ... you might just have your facts a trifle confused.

But thanks for giving me a reason to brag about my times!

So, just how consistent are you in your race times? Fam dropped off significantly in his last 5k effort, so are you accusing him of doping because he can't run a 13:11 every time he steps on the track? As SoCal pointed out, there are many factors besides short courses and PE's that can contribute to a slow or fast time.

WADA Police wrote:

As an example: I noticed that a Calif 45 yr masters recently ran a 14:45 5K and a few months ago, at Carlsbad, he ran a 15:27. If this Master's runner consistently ran in the high 14's or low 15's over the past few years, like SoCalPete, I would say that he is prob legit. If he has consistenly be a 15:30's 5Ker then pops a 14:45 Id be a little suspicious. (of either a short course or PE's) I don't know anything about this runner and what his times have been so I am not accusing him, it is just something to look out for.

People need to keep in mind that the OP is a sprinter, which represents another world than most runners here are acquainted with, in terms of PED use. He has every reason for concern, especially at the upper levels.

[quote]The Technorigine wrote:

Doping doesn't automatically make you a world-class open-level athlete. The times may not seem that fast to you, but to the clean guys they are beating, they are fast enough.

According to the NY Times, tens of thousands of Americans over age 40 are taking hgh and testosterone as "anti-aging" "medication". How many are masters runners?

[quote]

they will pay for it eventually...taking PEDs when you are older exacts a higher toll.

we are all going to be in a box in the ground eventually. I'd rather enjoy the later years w/out waiting for a liver transplant while I tell people, "I ran X:XX at the age of 47!"

My suspicion (hate to say "hope") is that you are right. Only I think that it applies to younger, long-term users as well. I wonder if any studies have ever been attempted to study this, perhaps in the context of legit long-term medicinal use of drugs like epo and steroids?

Off the Grid wrote:

they will pay for it eventually...taking PEDs when you are older exacts a higher toll.

we are all going to be in a box in the ground eventually. I'd rather enjoy the later years w/out waiting for a liver transplant while I tell people, "I ran X:XX at the age of 47!"

The Technorigine wrote:

People need to keep in mind that the OP is a sprinter, which represents another world than most runners here are acquainted with, in terms of PED use. He has every reason for concern, especially at the upper levels.

I guess all I can do is what some of the other postes have said. Just line up, have fun and go home knowing I gave my best and did it cleanly.

It is a hobby to me, but I still don't like to be beaten by cheats.

I haven't run a step competitively since 1987 but i have kept in shape racing bicycles. I started running again when i was 45 for cyclocross and found myself flying by guys on the running sections so i went down to the track to see if it was me or them. I have never taken anything stronger than vitamin C and ran a 25 second 220, a quarter in 56 and a sub 5 mile. First time on a track in almost twenty years and 20MPW training(and 300MPW cycling) If i were to train with a little intelligence, i would be close to a few age group records in the 50+.

Why bother? I live in CA,i am in show business so i must be a doper. Nobody would really spend a lifetime keeping themself in shape and not compete would they? How could someone run that fast at that age and not be on something?

Just the kind of attitude that made me not miss competing all these years.

Wada Police - Okay, my bad. Jeff Ambos just emailed me that he ran 14:45 a couple weeks back in the Fontana 5K. I don't believe the course is short. But it is definitely downhill! So you were right. There is another 45-year-old who's run 14:45 for 5K! - but the performance enhancement came from the course, not drugs. And yes, Jeff did run 15:27 at Carlsbad (though for my money, he's closer to a 15:15 guy).

Okay, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Pete

I think masters running will cease to exist within the lifetimes of most of us 40-somethings.

Scientists are on the cusp of discovering the underlying causes of aging. Drugs are on the horizon that will ameliorate most of the negative effects of growing old.

Currently, if your testosterone levels have declined you can get a prescription for a patch from your doctor. In the not-too-distant future you will be able to reverse the deterioration of your fast-twitch muscles, improve your immune system, literally counteract the aging process in many areas.

Anybody remember the strain of "Hercules mice" genetic scientists created a couple years back? Those mice never lost their youthful levels of strength even in old age..they are working on a drug for us older folks that does the same thing.

In 20 years there will be a lot of 60-year-olds with 20-year-old bodies. Our task is to stay fit and healthy until those anti-aging drugs are available.

It's gracious of you to say that, and I suppose you were technically wrong in inferring that the earlier poster was alluding to you [though, really, it's not an outrageous inference -- how many 14:45 5k guys are there in our age group?], but your larger point stands. Variable times can have many explanations [where one is in training cycle, injuries, competition level, difficulty of course, accuracy of course measurement, weather, etc.] and therefore are not strongly suggestive of doping.

Maybe I'm naive, but it never occurs to me to wonder if the top masters are on drugs. I know I'm not doping, and I'm almost as good [better at some distances] at 45 as I was in college/graduate school. Why shouldn't that also be true of some percent of the very very large number of guys who were a ton better than me back then?

Surely there's somebody somewhere cheating, but I'd have to hear more direct evidence before I would see it as widespread at all -- the existence of very fast masters, and the variability of race times at a given distance, don't convince me.

I agree with you. With very few exceptions--yourself included, "elite masters" is an oxymoron, and there is little or no incentive to cheat. Most, 99.99% are just out there to keep fit and to race.

SoCal Pete wrote:

You'll note I specifically said "current" top masters runners. As for the Russian women, I don't personally know them. I do know a few American masters women - Sylvia Mosqueda, Michelle Simonaitis, Ceci St. Geme - and I'd feel very comfortable vouching for them.

As a few posters have pointed out, we masters athletes treat running as a hobby. We have lives outside the sport - speaking of which, my son is impatiently waiting in the other room for me to come help him with homework!

"Masters Track Events-Are They Cheats?"...this one was!!!

Eddy Heylleybuck is a disgrace

the master runner who qualified for the Olympic Trials?

SoCal Pete wrote:

Wada Police - Okay, my bad. Jeff Ambos just emailed me that he ran 14:45 a couple weeks back in the Fontana 5K. I don't believe the course is short. But it is definitely downhill! So you were right. There is another 45-year-old who's run 14:45 for 5K! - but the performance enhancement came from the course, not drugs. And yes, Jeff did run 15:27 at Carlsbad (though for my money, he's closer to a 15:15 guy).

Okay, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Pete

SoCalPete,

I appreciate your words. In my own error, from my original post, I should have specified a 5K on the track as an example, instead of a road race. Road races have so many variables that can lead to a wide range of times. As another poster cited, using Fam as an example, track times can vary as well so I guess there is really no way to tell if someone is a cheat, unless one is tested.

I was thinking that if someone was running a consistant time range for a 5k over the past few years, as an example, then all of a sudden pops a 45 second improvement, this could be a good clue of PED usuage. THere are obviously many other things that can be going on. Again, I wasnt pointing figures at anyone (as I had very little facts about that particular example) I was just using a big time improvement as a potential clue.

I guess I am still bitter about when the Eddy H incident was revealed.

Anyway, Good training

I've been running for awhile and still setting PRs as a master runner that are competitive. I confess, my times can vary, I forget to take my geritol and my iron levels can get real low. Do I have to claim geritol on the drug listing?????

If someone is devious enough to turn to hardcore PED's, do think they are going to be blatant enough to drop a 45-second PR? I think not.

Wada Police wrote:

I was thinking that if someone was running a consistant time range for a 5k over the past few years, as an example, then all of a sudden pops a 45 second improvement, this could be a good clue of PED usuage.