JK as a coaching genius????

If you have been on this board for a LONG time (dating back about 2 years, as JK stopped posting about a year ago), you will have seen JK's genius.

I have saved every word he posted and I now have compiled literally a BOOK on training written by this guy.

As someone else said, he ahs FORGOTTEN more than most will EVER know about the sport of running.

He took Wejo, a 30:49 10K guy in college, to the elite level at 28:06 and #4 in the nation at 10,000 behind only Meb, Abdi, and Culpepper.

He took Rojo, before he was injured, to a 2:23 marathon and near miss at the OT qualifier.

He took his freind Paul Stoneham, who ran a PR 29:00 10K 10 YEARS ago, back to 29:00 last year for a NEW PR, 9 years later.

He advises Ryan Deak, a 4:06 high school miler and a rising star in American yound distance running.

These are all the athletes I know of that he coaches, but there also used to be an article on the site entitled "Revenge of the Nerds" about JK coaching for 8 years at a Texas private school with spectular success using an unconventional high mileage, relaxed aerobic development emphasis.

The next 8 years, after JK had left, saw the same school X-C and track program crash.

So, yes, I think they can promote their coach without getting bashed.

If your coach has results that can come close to these, by all means sing his praises.

Also, I will leave you with JK's long ago posted "Career training outline" that most who read it called the best piece of info they had ever seen on a running message board.

Enjoy:

"Wasting bandwidth - a general career training outline

Here are the fundamentals of our training approach. We use this same basic outline throughout an ENTIRE CAREER from about age 15 forward, with mileages steadily increasing toward the maximum as a runner demonstrates the ability to tolerate the load and benefit from it (this is BASIC training). We aim for two peaks per year. This policy is more conducive to long term development than is trying to peak three times in a year, as is often done in college (and sometimes in high school). We don't ALWAYS follow a 7-day pattern, either, but since most runners are often constrained by external demands (school, etc.), it's useful to acquire the ability to function well within a 7-day schedule. This is used for ALL track events from 1,500m through 10,000m, with adjustments made along the way as a runner shows a tendency to improve from a particular balance of workout types (this is the ART of training). Just as Lydiard's elite runners trained on the same basic plan until it was the time of the year for them to move toward their specialties, the aim of EVERY runner who races at middle and long distances should be to acquire a high level of aerobic fitness and to handle steadily increasing training loads (read: mileage).

We set the paces for timed workouts based on recent time trials or races (also depends on if there is an important race within a few days or whether the week's mileage is planned as high or low, etc.). In any case, we'll almost ALWAYS start SLOWER than the intended average and work into a speed which keeps lactate levels under complete control until the final 2-3 minutes of running. The PACE may be FASTER than the "laboratory GXT definition" of LT pace as "approximately one hour race pace", but the lactate levels THEMSELVES are what we are concerned with, NOT necessarily the PACE. For example, a runner who is in CURRENT shape for a 15:00 for 5,000m may have a theoretical LT pace of 5:15-5:20 per mile and might on one day perform 10 x 3 min. on/30-60 secs. off (so-called "high density") at an average of 5:15 mile pace for the 3 min. runs. Then on a DIFFERENT threshold workout, the same runner might do 3 x 8 min. on/5 min. off (lower density) at an average pace of 4:55 per mile (covering roughly 6.5 laps in each 8 min. bout if done on a track). Or the workout might consist of 20 x 400 in around 75, with 20-25 secs. rest periods - another high density session but run at a different pace than the first high density session. The point is to work at VARIOUS speeds but to stay on the comfortable side of tying up, only feeling like you're really "ripping it" during the last 2-3 minutes of the entire workout - and even THEN not rigging, but getting a "fast flying" feeling - working but not straining. You must train your body to operate under CONTROL while recruiting different muscle fibers, with various ranges of motion, and at different power outputs, thereby stimulating some systems while recovering others. High density repeats use predominantly slow twitch fibers and can be repeated fairly often in lieu of continuous runs. Lower density repeats allow you to spend significant time at or below your LT while running FASTER and are complementary to the high density sessions.

4-8 WEEKS EARLY PRESEASON:

This phase is loosely structured, with the emphasis on rebuilding mileage and on running by feel while covering some of the necessary bases.

2-4 days per week - Progression runs (no pace parameters yet - start slow, gradually and spontaneously increase speed to the high end of aerobic effort and stay there from 30-65 min., with a faster finish if feeling strong)

1-2 days per week - Sets of buildups or strides (ex.: 2-3 sets of 5-6 x 15-40 secs., jogging equal distance between reps and jogging 5-10 min. between sets - always do buildups, strides, and drills WITH the wind, if any) + drills and/or hills on occasion + 2-8 min. @ 90% effort (following last set of strides) every 2 weeks

1 day every 2 weeks - Long easy run (getting longer each time, last 1-3 miles gradually faster if feeling good)

Phase in doubles 1-2 times per week for 2 weeks, 3-4 times per week for 2 weeks, 4-6 times per week after that

4 WEEKS LATE PRESEASON:

Here we get more structured toward Mondays and Wednesdays being faster days and Saturdays being long run days (schedule shifted if needed based on whenever the long run is most convenient). The basic outline below totals 65-80 miles for a week at MINIMUM (depending on average training pace) and totals 125-150 miles at MAXIMUM (depending on pace).

Sun. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy ("shake-out" or "super-O2" pace) / P.M. 30-95 min. easy (normal comfortable pace)

Mon. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Progression run (spending 30-65 min. at a high end of aerobic effort) OR Tempo run with 20-25 min at LT effort OR High Density LT repeats (ex.: 8-15 x 3-4 min with 30-60 secs. rest periods)

Tue. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-95 min. easy

Wed. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Progression run (spending 30-65 min. at a high end of aerobic effort) OR High Density LT repeats (ex.: 15-25 x 60-90 secs. with 20-25 secs. rest periods) OR Sets of strides OR Lower Density short LT repeats (ex.: 12-20 x 45-90 secs. at roughly current controlled 3,000m Time Trial pace with nearly equal rest-to-run ratios)

Thu. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-95 min. easy

Fri. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 35-65 min. easy with 4-10 strides near the end

Sat. 125-155 min. easy with last 10-20 min. gradually faster if feeling good OR 95-125 min. with last 30-60 min. picked up to a strong high-end pace OR A.M. 30-35 min. very easy / P.M. Long warmup (25-35 min.), CONTROLLED (deliberately slow start) Time Trial of 3,000m-8,000m - designed to determine critical training speeds and make adjustments (60-65 min. total)

4 WEEKS EARLY COMPETITIVE SEASON (assuming Saturday RACE):

From this point on, runners who specialize at 1,500m will gradually gravitate toward the lower (or moderate) outlined mileage levels and will place slightly less emphasis on threshold work, favoring repeats more often than continuous runs and moving toward Lactate Tolerance training slightly sooner than the longer distance runners. Races during the early season are usually overdistance for 1,500m-3,000m runners, underdistance for 5,000m-10,000 runners (unless a time is needed as a qualifier).

Sun. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 30-95 min. easy (normal comfortable pace)

Mon. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Progression run (spending 30-65 min. at a high end of aerobic effort) OR Tempo run with 20-30 min at LT effort OR High Density LT repeats (ex.: 8-15 x 3-4 min with 30-60 secs. rest periods or 15-25 x 60-90 secs. with 20-25 secs. rest periods) OR Sets of strides (if long RACE previous Saturday)

Tue. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-95 min. easy

Wed. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Lower Density short LT repeats (ex.: 12-20 x 45-90 secs. at roughly current 5,000m race pace with nearly equal rest-to-run ratios) OR VO2max training (ex.: 6-8 x 2-3 min. at slightly slower than current 3,000m race pace)

Thu. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-95 min. easy

Fri. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 35-65 min. easy with 4-10 strides near the end

Sat. 95-125 min. with last 30-60 min. picked up to a strong high-end pace OR (rarely) 125-155 min. easy with last 10-20 min. gradually faster if feeling good OR RACE of 3,000m-5,000m (10,000m only if needed for qualifier)

4 WEEKS MID-SEASON (assuming Saturday RACE):

The 1,500m runners still spend more time on the faster workouts than longer distance runners, occasionally staying in touch with their LT training. Races are usually underdistance or specialty distance for all runners (unless a time is needed as a qualifier).

Sun. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 30-95 min. easy (normal comfortable pace)

Mon. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Sets of strides OR Tempo run with 20-30 min at LT effort OR High Density LT repeats (ex.: 8-15 x 3-4 min with 30-60 secs. rest periods or 15-25 x 60-90 secs. with 20-25 secs. rest periods) OR Lower Density long LT repeats (ex.: 4-5 x 4-5 min. at roughly current 5,000m race pace with 3-4 min. rest periods or 3 x 8 min. at roughly 10 secs./mile slower than current 5,000m race pace with 3-5 min. rest periods)

Tue. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-95 min. easy

Wed. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Lower Density short LT repeats (ex.: 12-20 x 45-90 secs. at roughly current 5,000m race pace with nearly equal rest-to-run ratios) OR VO2max training (ex.: 6-10 x 2-3 min. at slightly slower than current 3,000m race pace with equal rest-to-run ratios) OR Creatine Phosphate training (ex.: 2 sets of 2-3 x 7-10 secs. @ 98%-100% effort with 60 secs. walk between each and 8 min. walk between sets) OR Lactate Tolerance training (ex.: 8-10 x 45-65 secs. at slightly faster than current 1,500m/mile race pace with rest periods of about 1.5 times the run periods) OR Lactate Clearance training (ex.: 2-3 x 30-40 secs. at 95%-100% effort with 3-4 min. rest periods)

Thu. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-95 min. easy

Fri. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 35-65 min. easy with 4-10 strides near the end

Sat. RACE of 800m-1,500m (1,500m-5,000m specialists) or 1,500m-5,000m (10,000m specialists) OR 95-125 min. with last 10-20 min. gradually faster if feeling good

4 WEEKS LATE SEASON (assuming Saturday RACE):

Time to peak out. Lactate Clearance training is often done by all runners during this stage (if there are not too many races scheduled during the season), but only if regular speed maintenance (buildups and strides) and some Creatine Phosphate training has been used first.

Sun. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 30-65 min. easy (normal comfortable pace)

Mon. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. Sets of strides OR High Density LT repeats (ex.: 3-4 min. reps with 30-60 secs. rest periods) OR Creatine Phosphate training (ex.: 3-4 x 20 secs. @ 98%-100% effort with 60 secs. walk between each)

Tue. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-65 min. easy

Wed. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. VO2max training (ex.: 6-10 x 2-3 min. at slightly slower than current 3,000m race pace with equal rest-to-run ratios or 12-15 x 1 min. at slightly faster than current 3,000m race pace with nearly equal rest-to-run ratios) OR Lactate Tolerance training (ex.: 8-10 x 45-65 secs. at slightly faster than current 1,500m/mile race pace with rest periods of about 1.5 times the run periods) OR Lactate Clearance training (ex.: 2-3 x 1 min. at 95%-100% effort with 4-5 min. rest periods) OR Taper Session (ex.: 2 x 2 min. + 2 x 1 min. + 4 x 30 secs., each set of 2 having first rep medium speed and second rep fast with rest periods of about 1.5 times the previous run periods and the set of 4 all starting at medium speed and getting progressively faster)

Thu. A.M. 35-50 min. very easy / P.M. 35-65 min. easy

Fri. A.M. 0-35 min. very easy / P.M. 35-65 min. easy with 4-10 strides near the end

Sat. RACE of 400m-1,500m (1,500m specialists) or 800m-5,000m (5,000m specialists) or 1,500m-10,000m (10,000m specialists) OR 95-125 min. with last 10-20 min. gradually faster if feeling good

Oh, yes, don't forget the most important criterion of all: LOVE running!

"

Wejo= One good race hurt for 6 months, train for 6 one good race hurt for 6.

Rojo= one good race hurt for 6months, one good race hurt again.

Stoneham= One good race four years ago, still hurt.

Yet Kellog catches none of the flak that someone like Wetmore catches when his runners get hurt. Why????

Drummer-

I wonder with people like you if you actually follow to a large extent the sport of running.

Wejo has run 28:06, 28:10, 28:27, 28:32, and a 4th place 29:01 at the USA champs in 2001. Last time I checked that is a bit more than 1 good race, not to mention his road performances.

Ditto with JK's other athletes like Stoneham and Rojo. Ryan Deak has also had far more than one good performance.

Tell me; to what extent have you fooled yourself into thinking that the quality of a coach depends on the infrequency of his runners getting hurt?

Should JK now compromise his training approach and have Wejo do 30 miles a week?

Allow me to name some of the better runners in the U.S. and the world that have been injured or had some sort of setback at one time in the not too distant past:

U.s.- Bob Kennedy, Adam Goucher, Alan Culpepper, Abdi, Tim Broe, Alan Webb, Todd Williams, Tom McArdle, Dathan Ritzenhein, David Krummenacker

World- Haile Gebrselassie, Paul Tergat, Hicham El-Guerrouj, Khalid Khannouchi, Noah Ngeny, Marius Bakken, Tesfaye Jifar, Boaz Cheboiywo.

The above lst is limited only at my weariness of typing the name sof EVERY RUNNER I CAN THINK OF, which is exactly how many have suffered injuries or ailments or setbacks at some point in time.

Note the number of world record holders and Olympic medalists up there who have suffered injuries within the last year.

El-G just pulled out of a mile with back problems. Geb only recently got over Achilles and calf trouble. Ngeny has never been the same since his Olympic gold.

Khannochi is injured for nearly a quarter of every year if you look at his website.

Are you going to tell me that Wejo's plantar fascii and Rojo's Achilles tendonitis invalidate JK as a good coach?

2 out of every 3 runners are injured at a given point in time.

You are absurd to think otherwise.

A wily ole coach said to me this past week, "If you have never

been injured, you haven't pushed the envelope."

Interesting thought.

You guys are overlooking the fact that wejo and JK's other athletes do not have the raw talent of the people you are comparing them against. Maybe they cannot run national class times every time out for years on end, but at least they got there. Wejo's 30:48 in college is nothing - now he's 4th in the US, that's astonishing. This is why JK's approach interests me, it seems to be a way of cheating genetics by maximizing your aerobic capacity.

Imagine what the 10k guys who were fast milers (Browne, Culpepper) and the guys who were under 29 in college would do if they invested 5 or 6 years into JK's training.

the real problem comes in the form that it takes intense motivation and drive to put up with this style of training. It is very fatiguing and frankly you keep doing it for an extended period to have the sort of breakthrough that wejo had. Frankly ive tried running in the same fashion before, and its rough, you feel like trash all the time, you do see marked improvements, but as stated before the risks are greater, if one wants to maximize their ability over their career there has to be some form of balence. This is not to say that all of the above mentioned cant find that balence, but if your hurt then youve pushed it too far, the key is understanding what your body can handle that will take you right to the edge but not push you off into injury.

See this is the major problem. A coach gets an American to run a national class time and the guy gets promoted to be the best coach in the world. Only in the U.S. can some coach someone to a 28:06 and be declared the best in the world. By making that declaration we have assumed that 28:06 was never expected and that the goals of running faster have never existed. When Wejo can run a world record time and bring home a gold medal then we can put his coach on the bottom of the list of other coaches who have coached world records and olympic champions.

Gabe thought he was on top of the world when he beat fellow Americans to win the Olympic trials 1500. Look at him now.

Hey nyariki, JK's od of high mileage training has produced dozens of Olympic medalists over the past 40 years. You see, JK and Arthur Lydiard have VERY similar approaches to producing highly efficient and FAST distance runners. In fact, I really don't see ly any difference between the genius of JK and the genius of Lydiard. So let's review ... how many Olympic medalists do you think this style of training has produced? But I guess you wouldn't know since you apparently have never even heard of Lydiard. I'm sure you think the way to the medal podium is by going to the track six days a week and doing anaerobic training (just like many high school football/track coaches today). What an idiot you are my friend. What you need is a degree in exercise physiology because you are CLUELESS!!!

Hey nyariki, JK's method of high mileage training has produced dozens of Olympic medalists over the past 40 years. You see, JK and Arthur Lydiard have VERY similar approaches to producing highly efficient and FAST distance runners. In fact, I really don't see hardly any difference between the genius of JK and the genius of Lydiard. So let's review ... how many Olympic medalists do you think this style of training has produced? But I guess you wouldn't know since you apparently have never even heard of Lydiard. I'm sure you think the way to the medal podium is by going to the track six days a week and doing anaerobic training (just like many high school football/track coaches today). What an idiot you are my friend. What you need is a degree in exercise physiology because you are CLUELESS!!!

Wejo didn't promote Lydiard as the genius of any training style, he promoted JK as a genius coach plain and simple.

Boy did you really goof. Planned on changing screen names to act like someone else in defense of yourself eh?

Would you not agree that Lydiard was a genius? Or do you even know who Lydiard is???? If JK trains his runners the same way, he too is a genius. If both train their runners the same way and one is a wise old sage, it does not logically follow that the other is a clueless moron. I'm just curious...what is you opinion of Lydiard? If you think he's clueless, you're not even worth responding to. And if you think he's a great coach, tell me the differences between his coaching philosophy and JK's. Go ahead ... list them out for me pal. You have no idea what you are talking about.

So if Einstein says "E=Mc2" and then I turn around and say it does that make me a genious too?

Copycats aren't geniuses, they are copycats. If JK has simply taken Lydiard's program as you suggest, then he's a copycat, not a genius.

Man are YOU ever bitter. How do you know JK copied Lydiard? They both believe in lots of high end aerobic training, building and efficient aerobic base, pushing back the lactate threshold, and beating everyone else (like you) who goes to the track and trains like the football coach tells you to. By the way, are you an ex-football coach? You never answered my question. I don't think you really know anything about Lydiard and you are trying to deflect the question because you are so clueless about basic phsiology.

Excuses, Why don't you thank Wejo and JK for giving you a forum to whine on you sniveling little snot-nosed . Why don't you give us your name so I can personally come kick your fat ass.

Count me in on the ass kickin of "Excuses". What's your name boy? How big a boy are you anyway? What a loser.

Lydiard, Wetmore, Lananna, Vigil, JK, McDonnell, Shane, etc., all share similar training philosophies. Imagine that.

Excuses wrote:

So if Einstein says "E=Mc2" and then I turn around and say it does that make me a genious too?

Copycats aren't geniuses, they are copycats. If JK has simply taken Lydiard's program as you suggest, then he's a copycat, not a genius.

Hey, have you ever met JK, talked to him about training or anything else for that matter? Have you ever talked to anyone who has trained under JK and asked them their opinion?

I don't praise others lightly. When I use the word genius I mean it in the truest sense.

And sure I've had some injuries the last couple of years but over the last 8 years or so I've been one of the least injured guys out there. What kept me out last year was more of a freak thing than anything else that was hard to diagnosis because it was very similar to PF. A quicker diagnosis and I would have been out very little last year. This year I screwed up my hamstring and my calf a bit. Not life threatening injuries.

So Famigletti's got a bad coach, Alan Culpepper got's a bad coach, Adam Goucher, Bob Kennedy, David Krummenacker, Meb Keflezighi, Dan Browne, Tom Chorny, and who do you want me to add. How about Paul Tergat, Haile G, Paula Radcliffe, Noah Ngeny, and I'll give you more if you want. Basically every world class runner in the world has had some sort of injury in the last few years. So they're coaches must not be very good.

All I can say is that without JK, there is no way I'd be running at the level I'm at today. And of course he uses many of the basics laid down by Lydiard. What's he supposed to do reinvent the wheel?

And also I suggest you don't judge JK's genius based on the results of one runner. When I ran a great race at nationals, I couldn't believe how the emails started pouring in for training advice again. (They had dried up some during the year before). Now I have an off day and JK suddenly sucks.

Ask anyone who has every known me, I called JK a genius when I had a pr of 30+ minutes and 29:49 and I wanted to start this website to spread his training gospel. But half of you probably wouldn't have listened to me. But I suggest instead of praising or criticizing JK based on the results of one or two guys you get out there and implement his actual training. Get back to me in a few years and give me your verdict.

wejo,

Your belief in your coach is admirable. But you need to learn that you can't ever use the "g" word out loud. You can THINK it, but you cannot say it in company, much less post it on a message board. You did JK no favors when you did that. You set yourself and him up for a fall by just handing out ammunition to the other guys.

Just keep your powder dry, your head down and continue to chip away at those PR's and OTHER people will say, "damn, dude, your coach must be a genius".

Hope to see you make it to Athens.