The Ideal Marathon Runner's Development

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You'll have to wait for my book do out in about 10-12 years.

And hopefully that book "due" out in 10-12 years will be proofread.

I was 19 when I ran my first marathon and nothing helped my performances in cross country and track like training for the marathon did. Guys like Shorter, Georg Young, Billy Mills, Kenny Moore, were all running their best track times and running marathons.

In the 70s, Lydiard was predicting that the Africans would become the best distance runners on earth precisely for the reason you mention; their way of life forces them to high levels of aerobic fitness before they ever begin to "train."

He also didn't think that you could train a western runner the same way you trained an African because the western runner didn't have that naturally high level of aerobic fitness. They need to do a lot more aerobic work, i.e. "marathon" conditioning, to bridge that gap. So, yes, I think you're right.

sounds like a good idea to me.

Greg McMillan wrote and article, I belive, for Runner'w World or Runner's World Daily that, while poeple talk about genetic and cultural advantages (running-wise, that is) that Kenyans seem to have and we don't, we should look at other group of people who, like Americans-Europeans also don't have these advantages yet seemingly quite successful in the marathon--Japanese.

It surely helps but you really don't need to born and live in high altitude or have long skinny legs or sub 4:10 mile "talent" in high school to produce 100+ sub 2:20 marathon runners a year. A lot, not all, depends on how you train. I was just reading a story about Okutani, the guy who, being a complete underdog, ran 2:08 and got selected for Osaka World Championship marathon, finishing behind Geb, the previous Fukuoka winner, and the world champion, Garib at last December's Fukuoka marathon. His coach said the difference was his attitude to training. He said that, while injured and couldn't run, he went out and walked for 3 hours. He said, for the preparation for Fukuoka, he trained average of 60km a day for a period of 2-weeks.

While training a lot is important, training right s also very important. Sometimes seemingly the same thing, if you miss out a small ingredient, could produce very different results. Kenyans simply run a lot when they are young. You can simply run and run a run some more and you'll get very very fit. But if you want to become a future Olympic champion, you will most likely need to consider working on your speed as well. I'm not talking about doing regular 400s or 200s or things like that. Kenyan kids would be piling up those miles in most likely his/her barefoot, strengthening, if anything else, their feet and developing very flexible and supple legs and feet. They would also most likely run up and down the naturally undulating terrain to develop flexible and supple strides as well.

Also this is my belief that those Kenyan kids are running around, enjoying what they are doing. They might sprint up the hill and, when they get tired, they would slow down or walk. There wouldn't be much pressure to "perform" anything within these unstructured runs. In other words, they are developing their aerobic capacity without putting too much pressure on themselves. I beleive this could be one of the biggest differences. They are developing their endurance freely and naturally; while us Westerners worry about pace and distance and lactate level and fat energy and all. Some people, and I kind of remember young kids like Paul Gumper or Kurk Pfeffer (spelling?), who seem to just get out and run a lot and get stronger and faster as they run; while others, me for one, might have to just go slowly on the long runs but would have to sharpen speed because of that. Everybody's different. You need to figure out what elements, all of them, you need to be a success in distance running and make sure you cover all those in your own best way. I don't think all of those Kenyan kids train the same way. They "train" to know themselves by listening to their body; while majority of Western youngsters seek some sort of cookie-cutter formula from scientifically well-advanced lab-notebooks.

Nobby - Can you post any of the current top japanese marathoners training or articles from the better resources or journals you may have access to? I have noticed the journals from England and Austrailia are far superior to any of the running mags in the US, let alone the US having any articles about these athletes. They an not even cover their own.

I agree completely. I know a lot of runners who go right to the back of every running book, pull out the intervals and start hammering away with no base. Lydiard said that without aerobic conditioning those interval schedules are not worth the paper they are written on.

a young runner wrote:

How would you now make up for a European-American runner who has missed out on these cultural advantages which the Kenyans have not?

Easy, just ask the Japanese.

The ones I have, Hodgie-san has posted on his website (Seko's and Inubushi's). I get monthly report of a sort about what some of Japanese runners are doing (Takaoka, Noguchi, Tosa, Shibui, etc.) but not day-to-day training. For example, like I stated earlier, Okutani was running 60km a day for 2 weeks; Ozaki (the girl who finished second to Tosa at Tokyo) on the other hand, can't really handle lots of miles too often so she did 30k every week for 6 weeks... Something like that. Tosa's signature training for Tokyo was to run 30 laps around 1km XC loop in China--she would start out at 3:40 pace and move it up to 3:25 in the last 5k. Oh, by the way, her (Tosa's) "speed training" is 5k tempo; never does any 400 intervals or LT mile repeats or anything like that.

Here's an interesting story: I had a chat with Dave Morris a couple of years ago. I asked him why he left Japan. He said he was feeling tired and sluggish all the time and he wanted to do more fast 400s. We all heard the story that he was doing 40k tempo and all while in Japan. He ran, what, 2:09? But when he came back and started doing 400s, he never ran that fast. There's a book about this guy called Hayata who ran 2:08 but never quite fullfilled his expectation as a marathon runner (he was great at distance around 20k). He had the same complaints; didn't like slow distance work, wanted to blast going around track. His coach said; "he was losing all his stamina by running too fast..." I know if I rephrase such statement, many people will jump all over and argue but my point is; why leave the winning combination? You felt sluggish and tired but ran great! I'd rather do that than feel great but never perform as well as supposed to.

Where have you gone, David Morris?

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably start running two hours every day in college (two runs six days per week, one long run on Sunday) at a super slow pace until my body could adapt. I would pick up the average tempo year after year, assuming I could handle the volume. May as well find out early in life how good of a runner you can be rather than dicking around with it too long after college. I know some elites can run well into their 30s, but most runners probably attain their peak in their late 20s. Then, whether you accomplished your goals or not, you are still plenty young to move on with your life.

So what your saying is I should add that altitude chamber back on my soon to be born son's shower registery? He'll thank me later.

I am always disgusted by the grammar police on Letsrun as folks usually dash off a response while mult-tasking. But, I have to admit that your response to the self-proclaimed, soon to be author, gave me a good laugh.

Agree. This is also good plan for the 40 year old masters guy attempting one last go round while he can. 30 min. 10k 40 year old with no injury history can most likely follow a plan like this and shoot for a marathon peak in fall.

And hopefully that book "due" out in 10-12 years will be proofread.

Who's hopeful here? the book? the author? you?

Avoid using "hopefully" in this context.

I hate generalizations, they're always wrong.

gallager wrote:

I am always disgusted by the grammar police on Letsrun as folks usually dash off a response while mult-tasking. But, I have to admit that your response to the self-proclaimed, soon to be author, gave me a good laugh.

Agree with you here. The US 'system' did me little good, it left me ignorant and often injured. If I had the knowledge and motivation enough to do it a better way on my own I'm sure I'd be much happier with the outcome.