What happens to all these guys who are winning marathons right now when Olympics come? I'm not trying to take anything away from Baldini or anybody else, but let's be honest, what happens to all these 2:06 2:07 guys (not including Baldini obviously cuz he won it). Are they better about testing for performance enhancing drugs at the Olympics?
There's very little comparison between running a relatively flat course under optimal autumn or spring weather conditions, such as the marathons in Chicago, Berlin, or London, and running the Olympic marathon which is usually very hilly, humid, and hot.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of it but they do test at other marathons as well. I think the big part is the loss of appearance money and prize money if they do the Olympics. You figure it's essentially a year of winnings gone when you factor in trials (for countries that have them) and the Olympics themselves.
The Olympics open up huge doors here in the USA. In Kenya a guy like Evans Rutto would rather run Chicago or New York with a big paycheck than run the Olympics. So if selected, many of them tank it and then come back for a fall payday. You don't really believe that Meb was the second best marathoner in the World that day do you? And no East African was good enough to medal?
Good points. Always follow the money trail.
Meb WAS the second best marathon runner on the day. That's what Olympic Games is all about. Many can't even peak on the day. As far as I'm concerned, and this is not to take anything away from some exercise physiologist turned coach, they have means to measure "who's coming right" out of so many runners, namely African runners, and take those sellected few to major races. They'll do well because it's scientifically confirmed that they were coming right. The real art of coaching is to bring your athlete right on the day from a year or more out, including the trial. That's what Meb and his team succeeded and some Kenayn team didn't. Quite often some commentator might say, "not a bad pay day for 2 hour + work..." Well, it's actually years and years of work concentrated on that day. Some unforeseen unfortunate things may happen--like what happened to Marty Liquori (injuries) or Jim Ryun (fall). It is so much harder to shoot for some particular race and peak for that race. That's why, to me, Frank Shorter was so great because he picked the marathon and won most of them (on his hay days). Also I don't buy the theory of Kenyans simply going after cash--immediate cash, maybe. If you have the Olympic medal, particularly gold, then you can demand a lot more appearance money and you don't even perform too well in the actual race. I'm not an agent so I'm not for sure but some Olympic champs get more money to come to the race than actual performance. If they don't see that, their agent should point that out.
There are just SO many differencs between the Olympic marathon and the big city money marathons.
You get an unlimited number of Kenyans in the big city race.
Look at Boston. Every year they might have 6 or 8 Kenyans entered. As a group, they outnumber any other country. So the odds are that one of them will be the one to have the day and win. Cut that down to three and you decrease the likelihood of one of them winning.
The modern marathon is set up to produce fast times. The course is designed for it. The date is chosen with an eye toward cool weather. Rabbits are hired. Essentially, you've created a forum to see who can run the fastest time trial.
The Olympic marathon, and the World Championship as well, is an old fashioned race. If you want a fast pace, you may have to do set it yourself. It will probably be warm if not hot. The course may have a hill or two. Remember Khannouchi's explanation for why he dropped out at Edmonton?
I think we've got a aituation where a certain type of marathon runner shows up on the world stage for three out of four years and then another sort of runner turns up for the Olympics. You certainly can't rule out more aggressive drug testing as a factor, but it's not the only one, by any means.
time trialers vs. racers is the simplest explanation.
You are giving "the team" way too much credit. Bob Larsen has said on many occasions that Meb picked the right guy to follow. He choose Baldini weeks before the Olympics based on Baldini's consistency. Then the Olympics were simply a time trial type of race. Do you think that Meb is a great "racer" like Shorter? NO WAY. Take a look at all of Meb's marathons. He simply follows a guy until that guy beats him over the end. Nothing has ever changed. Even in the Olympics, he never had a chance to win the Gold. He only chased down the leader in the late stages because Baldini did. Unless he has a change in tactics he will NEVER win a marathon, including the US trials.
drugs? wrote:
What happens to all these guys who are winning marathons right now when Olympics come? I'm not trying to take anything away from Baldini or anybody else, but let's be honest, what happens to all these 2:06 2:07 guys (not including Baldini obviously cuz he won it). Are they better about testing for performance enhancing drugs at the Olympics?
Big namers? These guys that run fast are not big namers? How many of the 7 guys in Chicago with faster Pr's than Baldini can you name off of the top of your head? Probably 1 and that is only because he smashed his melon at the finish line.
Is there prize money awarded at the Olympics?
no prize money other than shoe company and country bonuses..but is that really the point ? It's the lifetime of pride and honor and the eternal understanding that you won the biggest prize of all.
They did a poll of elite athletes of all sports and the Olympic Gold was the #1 most revered award.
I don't believe that the IOC are really trying to catch drug cheats, it would be too much bad publicity for them. How many athletes tested positive at Sydney?
Maybe so. I was being nice because I like Meb. But you know what, he's got the silver medal to show.
old old old wrote:
They did a poll of elite athletes of all sports and the Olympic Gold was the #1 most revered award.
I believe that was a poll of "American Athletes".
If you had a choice of feeding your family for the rest of their lives or winning the gold medal. Keep in mind that as many as 30% of your family will die from starvation or malnutrition if you choose the Gold Medal. These are the decisions that a 2:06 marathoner living in a 3rd world country has to make.
It's very hard for Kenyans to qualify for the Olympics. Tergat and Wainana went to Athens, but they were not in great shape. Kenya failed badly in that race. Same thing with Japan I suspect. Nobby what do you think about the Janpanese selection process, is it too hard.
Presumably Noguchi was pre selected after her Silver Medal in Helsinki, and that allowed her to train thoroughly.
BIG namers? wrote:
If you had a choice of feeding your family for the rest of their lives or winning the gold medal. Keep in mind that as many as 30% of your family will die from starvation or malnutrition if you choose the Gold Medal. These are the decisions that a 2:06 marathoner living in a 3rd world country has to make.
Can you say overdramatic. Geez.
Japan has an intreguing sellecting system--so does every country! They basically have 3 sellecting races in Japan (Tokyo, Osaka and Nagoya for women; Fukuoka, Tokyo and Lake Biwa for men) and you'll have to be the first Japanese in the race and better the certain time criteria (2:10 or 2:09 or whatever). Then if you win a medal in the world championships in the previous year (and of course you'll have to be the first Japanese), you'll win the automatic sellection. And, yes, that's how Noguchi got sellected and their plan worked perfectly--she had the whole year to prepare. Takahashi, in 2000, did it the hard way. She wanted to win the world champs in 1999 but was injured. Bad fortune followed her and she had to wait till the last sellecting race--Nagoya (not the ideal way to prepare for the Olympics) which she won...and went on to win the Olympics as well. 2004 was a completely different story; she picked Tokyo but finished second. I believe she wanted to be sellected for the world champs team at Tokyo as well but she was injured then as well. Now, the intriguing part is; so you have four races to pick three athletes. That's where committee comes to play. It's always a contraversial (spelling?) situation which I don't want to get into. It was a pity that Takahashi didn't get picked for 2004 as the defending champion. Noguchi already announced that she won't run Osaka WC so it will be interesting... Next weekend's Tokyo women's marathon will be the first of world champs sellection races. In a way, the battle for the Olympic spot for Beijin will begin--both Tosa and Takahashi wants to go to Osaka and do well and go on to Beijin with a whole year's preparation. I will be there (not to watch it on TV, but at the stadium!) so I'm really excited to see it first hand!
mjlaye wrote:
BIG namers? wrote:If you had a choice of feeding your family for the rest of their lives or winning the gold medal. Keep in mind that as many as 30% of your family will die from starvation or malnutrition if you choose the Gold Medal. These are the decisions that a 2:06 marathoner living in a 3rd world country has to make.
Can you say overdramatic. Geez.
Only if you can not relate is it overdramatic. Thank god (or whoever) that we as americans can not relate. However, let us not criticize those that have a different set of values as their values may be more worthy.
The "selected" Olympic marathoners/track athletes from Kenya are already making money on track and roads for the most part. They are well past the stage you describe.
The other 30 (exageration, I know) Kenyan marathoners who "only" run 2:08 absolutely run to change their lifestyles and that of their families.
Imagine how it feels to be a the 4th thru 11th steeplechaser in Kenya who runs sub 8:12 (citing 2005) and isn't going to run in an Olympics.