before you continue arguing, please remember that 'american' is not a racial signifier

I don't agree with your allegation that it is a thinly veiled "black vs. white" thing. It is a "where you were born and raised" thing. People who want to see "real" Anericans run well get just as excited about Matt Gonzales, the Torres brothers and David Krumenacher as they do the white guys. Likewise, people wouldn't get as pumped for a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Swede who becomes American to compete for us late in his career over one of our own. So call don't call us racists...(nationalists maybe).

Exactly! I think that the majority of us would agree with you!!! You idiots that like to throw out the "racist" tag are clueless. It has nothing to do with race at all. Simply we choose to root for the Americans that came through our system; the others are welcome and I hope that they do well (no bad wishes at all); simply not that interested and choose not to follow them.

I'll be the biggest fan of Abdi,Lagat and Meb's kids.

moman wrote:

Exactly! I think that the majority of us would agree with you!!! You idiots that like to throw out the "racist" tag are clueless. It has nothing to do with race at all. Simply we choose to root for the Americans that came through our system; the others are welcome and I hope that they do well (no bad wishes at all); simply not that interested and choose not to follow them.

[quote]sure wrote:

I'll be the biggest fan of Abdi,Lagat and Meb's kids.

[quote]moman wrote:

Post of the week

I'm a fan of Lagat, but I don't consider him a true American runner for the simple reason that he has already competed in the Olympics for Kenya. I have heard that in some other sports, possibly soccer?, that once you compete on the world level for one country, you lose eligibility to compete for any other country at the world level. I think this would be a good rule for track and field. I have no problem considering guys like Meb, etc. American runners, because they were here from the start, at least of their professional careers.

moman wrote:

Exactly! I think that the majority of us would agree with you!!! You idiots that like to throw out the "racist" tag are clueless. It has nothing to do with race at all. Simply we choose to root for the Americans that came through our system;

Not to rain on your racist parade but....

Legat did go through the American system...

He went to college in America and he does most of his training in America with American training partners...NOT KENYAN

He married an American...

People please read the constitution of the United States and find out what it really means to be an American...

by a lot of ya'lls logic George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and many more great AMERICANS aren't really Americans....

Since this thread is virtually the same as they Salazar versus Meb/Legat thread, I will copy this here.

----

Ok, here is a partial list of foreign born runners with (or had) American records, or represented the U.S. in worlds/Olympics

Sydnee Maree

Khalid

Meb

Abdi

Legat

Salazar

Shorter

I'm sure there are more and others will fill-in this list.

For those that are fans of "products of the American system" you're all in agreement that all of these runners should be viewed differently than a "real" American ("real" meaning born and raised in the U.S.)

Wait, you say, even though Shorter and Salazar were born outside the U.S., they were raised in the U.S. since infants. So they count as "real" Americans. Ok

But Meb moved to the U.S. when we was 12 and ran XC in High School. Legat went to Washington State University at 18 and pretty much stayed in the U.S. ever since. He competed for Kenyan because the process of becoming a U.S. citizen takes many years. He would have competed for the U.S. years earlier had the process been done.

Since I'm guessing Salazar and Shorter qualify as "real" Americans whereas Meb and Legat do not, the definition of a "real" American must mean you move to this country before the age of 12.

If it's not an age requirement, then could it be the color of Salazar and Shorter's skin versus Meb and Legat?

Regarding the skin color angle, their seems to be a lot more enthusiasm for guys like Teg and Webb on this board then their was for Steve Holman and Johnny Gray (even when the later two were having great seasons a few years ago).

A few years ago when Marius Bakken was under 13:10, he got a lot of attention and his own threads on theis board. How many threads you see about Issac Songok or Augustine Choge?

Last thought, If later today Craig Mottram announced he wants to be a U.S. citizen in time to compete in the olympic 5k in China, would this board would treat him the same way as Legat?

It's easy to say race has nothing to do with it. But it's painfully obvious to me that race has everything to do with it. Think of the demographic of this board.

Swofford11 wrote:

moman wrote:

Exactly! I think that the majority of us would agree with you!!! You idiots that like to throw out the "racist" tag are clueless. It has nothing to do with race at all. Simply we choose to root for the Americans that came through our system;

Not to rain on your racist parade but....

Legat did go through the American system...

He went to college in America and he does most of his training in America with American training partners...NOT KENYAN

He married an American...

People please read the constitution of the United States and find out what it really means to be an American...

by a lot of ya'lls logic George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and many more great AMERICANS aren't really Americans....

How would anyone consider GW, Franklin, and Jefferson as not being Americans?? They were all born in the American colonies!

Peaople on this board bitch a lot more about Lagat as anew US citizen, than they do Colleen DeReuk (sp?).

Ok, you're right in a way. Black Africans have dominated distance running for roughly 20 years. None of really know why. Some people think that they have a genetic thing going. Some think it's got more to do with the way they live from their first steps onward. We're uncertain, but there's some suspicion that being born to black parents in Africa conveys some sort of advantage to a distance runner that a white South African doesn't have or that perhaps a Black American or Brit doesn't have and that certainly white Americans or Europeans don't have.

So when someone born to black African parents and who spends their developmental years in Africa, and by 12 or so you're pretty well developed, moves to the US or to Europe and becomes the best runner in their country, it raises questions. Issues of acceptance aside, do you honetly think that Meb's success at the marathon means that we'll be back producing Olympic medallists on a regular basis? I appreciate what he's done, same for Khannouchi (and yes, Moroccans throw a wrench into the whole Black African/White African thing,) but while I can appreciate Meb, I can't imagine that a generation of US high school and collegiate runners will think, "If he can win an Olympic medal maybe I can too" as happened with Shorter 34 years ago simply because those high school and collegiate runners recognize the POSSIBILTY, though not the certainty, that Meb has acquired some advantage as a runner by virtue of his early years and parentage that they don't have.

What I think is sad is that we've come to a state where people who recognize this obvious difference and try to make sense of it can get called things like racisits, which you are not necessarily doing, but certainly happens.

Sounds like you're arguing Meb's silver isn't inspiring anyone because he's black. I fear this is true. Pre accomplished less and inspired way more.

Question, why isn't Meb's silver inspiring black kids to run XC? I think the answer is distance running is considered a "white sport" like hockey or tennis or golf. While all those sports have a few blacks, and some of them are pretty good (tiger, james blake), the fact is black kids don't play these sports and a sucessful black doesn't interest them.

This is why I think we see racism in this sport. Not only do black kids think distance running is a white sport, so do white kids too. That's why they cannot stand the sucess of east africans and disparge them by accusing them of doping. But if anyone on this board accused, say, wisconsin of being a doping factory, they would be screamed off this board and wejo would delete the post.

The evidence of kenya doping is as strong as wisconsin (which is to say none exists). So why do we accuse tje kenyans of doping and never the badgers? Answer, racism. The badgers are white and look like the posters on this baord. East africans arw not.

Swofford11 wrote:

[quote]moman wrote:

He married an American...

...

He married a CANADIAN woman...

Old Runner Guy wrote:

So why do we accuse tje kenyans of doping and never the badgers? Answer, racism.

Plus the minor detail that several Kenyans have been caught doping while no Wisconsin runners have.

Oh yeah, there's that. But the r word is such a crutch these days that you can get lots of special treatment if you whine it loud enough and often enough. So whine away!

I don\'t know, but it seems to me that we\'ve gotten to a place where any criticism of blacks, or even lukewarm appreciation is called racism and I think that\'s a bad thing. If people are going to be equal they\'ll be criticized and underappreciated.

Let\'s look at doping accusations against Kenyans as compared to those of Wisconsonites. Kenyans are faster, by far. It\'s a lot easier to think someone who\'s run 27:35 is clean than someone who\'s run 26:35. It may not be true, but it\'s easier to think. Plus, we have no failed tests from the Wisonsin guys. We don\'t have them coached by a guy like Dr. Rosa with some connection, perhaps only circumstantial, but noticable anyway, to a system that is known for doping. The old Athletics West crew has taken some lumps here with doping allegations and they were all white.

Do Americans consider distance running a \"white\" sport. Quite possibly. But, as you point out, both black and white Americans seem to think so. So is that a racist idea or an American one?

I\'m not arguing that Meb isn\'t inspiring anyone because he\'s black. I\'m arguing that he\'s inspiring fewer than a Shorter or Prefontaine did because he was born and raised for a significant time in very different circumstances than virtually all US runners have been and we recognize that as true and can\'t simply say, \"Wow, he\'s an American and he\'s got an Olympic silver medal so maybe I can get one too.\" If my son, who\'s just started running cross country, ever asks whether I think he could be a serious big games medal contender as an American, I\'d be more likely to use Mottram or Jon Brown as positive examples for him than I would Meb or Lagat because I think there are more similarities in his abckground with Brown\'s or Mottram\'s and I really cannot see racism there no matter how I look.

I don't need anyone to tell me that Letsrun is filled with lots of closet racists. It's the way of life.

Swofford11,

You my sir are an idiot. Evidence to the point:

1) You can't even spell his name. It's Lagat, not "Legat."

2) He didn't go through the "American system" of high school or club development. He came for college as an already established elite athlete.

3) You don't know much about the forming of the United States.

4) Mottram would almost definitely, especially by those on this board, be viewed as more of an "outsider" if he took US citizenship than Lagat ever has been, since he has already proven himself as one of the world's best.

5) Steve Holman and Johnny Gray were before this letsrun boom of the last couple years. Same reason we're not talking about Steve Scott or Dave Wottle.

6) I and most of the letsrun crowd nevertheless emebrace him and as American and support his career as it winds down.

7) Race has nothing to do with this. I know more than you think.

By the way, before you call David Krummenacker black, I suggest you take a look at this picture:

http://www.uga.edu/bahai/2003/370-460.jpg

(that's his mom on the right)

Torres brothers are white, as are many hispanics.

Old Runner Guy wrote:

Sounds like you're arguing Meb's silver isn't inspiring anyone because he's black. I fear this is true.

Meb's silver means nothing because he is "Meb" - NOBODY CAN PRONOUNCE OR SPELL THE GUY'S NAME! I follow T&F closely and had to look up how to spell Mebrahtom Keflezighi. I have no idea how to pronounce it. How do you think the average American felt when they saw on the news during the Olympics that "American Mebrahtom Keflezighi won the silver in the men's marathon." Color has NOTHING to do with it. Carl Lewis, Edwin Moses, Maurice Green, Michael Johnson, Joe Deloach, Steve Lewis, Quincy Watts, Lee Evans, Bob Hayes, Rafer Johnson, Kevin Young, Roger Kingdom, Mike Powell, Michael Connelly, Justin Gatlin ... the list goes on and on and on. All black, all "Olympic heros" during their particular Olympic Games. The difference is the average American sees their names as "American" names. I for one do not want to see an American Olympic team full of former foreigners whose names I cannot pronounce. When that becomes the norm, interest in Olympic track and field will plummet in the United States.

what the he** is an "american" name?

move on out of kansas there sonny.