i ran my usual 10x 400m with 60 sec rest today that i have done for the last 4 weeks. i averaged 65, 65, 64 for the 3 previous weeks. i was visiting my girlfriend today and had to run the session on the local hs track. unfortunately, it is cinder. i averaged 67 for the 10 today. it felt like i was running on the beach and could get no power whatsoever out of my stride. all the gravel was really loose. my hat goes off to guys like jim ryun who used to blaze sub 4 around these pieces of crap!!!
Yes, the old tracks were no where near what they are today. If it rained the day before, you were definetly in trouble. I know exactly what you mean by the track being "loose". When they used to put new cinders on and didn't roll the track, it is just like you said: you are running on the beach.
After Reading Bannister's book I felt that he would have been a 3:45 miler or better if had been born 50 years later. He ran on a cinder track with those terrible shoes and not-so-comfortable looking shorts and top, not to mention his training.
Also, Kip Keino might have been the greatest miler of all time with his 3:34 in Mexico city, running 53 for the SECOND lap. Imagine what he could have done with what we have today.
I think that there's another thread that addresses this issue. It's called "Mile Question" or "Miler Question" or something like that.
if you've ever run on a well maintained cinder track, you'll know that it's got a tremendous amount of energy return- ESPECIALLY if it's rained recently (what was that guy talking about?).
it's not sand. it's rock. if it's packed well, it's very nearly as hard as asphalt. even considering the slight slippage on the few loose stones atop the pack, you MIGHT lose a half second per quarter mile.
the lack of consistent rabbits is way more significant than track surface with regards to ryun's pr.
I often use a nearby HS cinder track which is not maintained. While my intervals are slower, it is for sure, easier on my 40 year-old legs/knees.
Amazingly, while the other track I use gets a $2 million renovation this summer, nobody has managed to find this track on "the other side of the tracks" (black community)", 1.5 miles away. Result? No walkers, cellphones, idiots in lane 1, etc.
I fing the same thing - while the cinder track is slower it is easier on my 60 year old legs.
First of all, Ryun took 2 minutes between 440 reps. They were run with 3:00 departure times, going by a big swimming clock by the side of the track. Bob Timmons coached state champions in swimming, cross country, and track. He coached Archie San Romani Jr, who had the national mile record at 4:08 quite a few years before Ryun came alone. Timmons also coached a number of national class swimmers, some of whom went on to break world records and compete in the Olympics.
I ran on the track at Wichita East a number of times prior to and when Ryun was there and it was always in excellent condition. You wore spikes and did not slip on the surface. I have run on gravel tracks where you slip a lot especially wearing flats but the WE track was not like that. Also Ryun ran a lot of his races on rubberized tracks. They were not all on cinders, but the cinder tracks were very fast too. And they were definitely easier on the legs.
I miss the dirt tracks and refuse to train on a hard rubberized track. They are fine for racing but usless for training and there are many better places to train.
As several people have commented, back In The Day there were many very good, very hard, very fast cinder tracks. Nowadays, the only ones left are relative junkers. Do not judge all the old cinder tracks by what you see now.
trailrunner63 wrote:
As several people have commented, back In The Day there were many very good, very hard, very fast cinder tracks. Nowadays, the only ones left are relative junkers. Do not judge all the old cinder tracks by what you see now.
Yeah there was a huge variation, a good hard one which had been rolled before the meet could be fast, I used to get sore legs after running fast races on them though.
"ESPECIALLY if it's rained recently (what was that guy talking about?)."
-if you're someone who runs their best in a mudbath, then more power to you. you would have done well in april in kansas.
When I was a college freshman, we had square cinder track. But the school was building a whole new athletic complex that included a state of the art synthetic track. It opened at the very end of my freshman year. The next year we did all of our track sessions on the new track (which is essentially to say that we did all of our running there) and in a couple of weeks were begging the coach to let us go back and do them on the old, square, dirt track which was much, much easier on our legs. No luck though, we were told that the school hadn't spent all that money on a new track to have us train on the old one.