Even if they use the More Marathon course in Central Park, probably the kindest option, it will be much more hilly than any other large marathon and there is a good chance that the winner will not even get the A standard, 2:15 I believe.
Even if they use the More Marathon course in Central Park, probably the kindest option, it will be much more hilly than any other large marathon and there is a good chance that the winner will not even get the A standard, 2:15 I believe.
I have to admit that after all these months, when all is said and done, this is the course they're using.
if we cant get the A standard, whether on NY or any course, then we should not be at the Worlds or Olympics, period...a 2 15 at NY is about a 2 13 elsewhere, maybe a 2 12, and that is still waaaaaay behind the world. were talking worlds/Olympics, the best of the best, why should we baby the athletes and make trials easier? they have 6 goddam months to recover!
our top 3 runners in the trials will all be capable of sub 212 on the new york course, and they can do that on a previous coure starting january 1st, 2007, the 215 or 218 or whatever will not be a problem for the top 3 marathoners in the usa.
I think people are missing your point here, which is that the Central Park course is 4 full laps of the park plus 2.2. That is a lot of hills. I don't think even the best runners could manage better than 2:16 on it, even if run clockwise, which is the easier direction.
Yep..ah well, the athletes play second fiddle to the taxman once again.
I love the criterium idea but the event Needs to be in a mid size locale. Men and Women on the same course, same day.
NYC? yawn... and no one will care except for us.
The same was said about the Athens Games course...
MarathonMind wrote:
I think people are missing your point here, which is that the Central Park course is 4 full laps of the park plus 2.2. That is a lot of hills. I don't think even the best runners could manage better than 2:16 on it, even if run clockwise, which is the easier direction.
Are you talking the same course where the US 8k winner routinely runs a very fast time despite the hills? You are absolutely insane if you think that Meb, Culpepper, Abdi, Brown, Sell, Ritz, et. al will not be able to break 2:15 on ANY course set in NY city. Meb easily broke 2:15 in Athens, and Culpepper almost did the same- I'm pretty sure that the conditions/course will not be anywhere near as tough as it was then. Barring awful weather conditions, the 2008 Trials will be as fast (and deeper) than it was in 2004.
MarathonMind wrote:
I think people are missing your point here, which is that the Central Park course is 4 full laps of the park plus 2.2. That is a lot of hills. I don't think even the best runners could manage better than 2:16 on it, even if run clockwise, which is the easier direction.
Read the release - it's a 5 loop course, eliminating the north hills. Still not a pancake, but then neither was St. Louis for the women. There's something to be said for a course w/ varying terrain - it gives the strength runners (i.e. Sell) more of an equal footing against the speed/Track guys like Culpepper. Look at the Boston results as an example. I know nothing of the nature of the Beijing course but if it's hot/hilly we may be better off sending a team of guys who can deal w/ a tougher course rather than a time trial layout.
Jim,
When you indicate that we will Know shortly whether the race will be held Friday or Saturday. What do you mean by shortly? 6 months ago we were told that we would no the site of the trials shortly?
michigan runner.. wrote:
Jim,
When you indicate that we will Know shortly whether the race will be held Friday or Saturday. What do you mean by shortly? 6 months ago we were told that we would no the site of the trials shortly?
But apparently we don't KNOW the difference between NO and KNOW.
Does it really matter if takes 6 more months to determine if it will be on Friday or Saturday? My understanding is that NYRR is trying to determine what the best option is in terms of TV coverage. Let them do that so that all on this board are not blasting them for whatever TV package comes to fruition.
Also remember that they have a little race Sunday morning to put on so i am sure they want to make sure their infrastructure will allow them to put on the best possible Trails and then turn around and put on the ING NYC Marathon.
The Central Park course is NOT the full six-mile loop and it does not include the most severe hills at the northern end. This has been made very clear in all the news releases.
JimG wrote:
Read the release - it's a 5 loop course, eliminating the north hills. Still not a pancake, but then neither was St. Louis for the women. There's something to be said for a course w/ varying terrain - it gives the strength runners (i.e. Sell) more of an equal footing against the speed/Track guys like Culpepper. Look at the Boston results as an example. I know nothing of the nature of the Beijing course but if it's hot/hilly we may be better off sending a team of guys who can deal w/ a tougher course rather than a time trial layout.
Excellent loop. Half of it is nearly level, with long straightaways, and most of the rest is moderate grade. (I said most.) Anyway, wouldn't most people expect a tough course in NYC and adjust expectations accordingly?
I know an American record for 10 miles for women was once set around Central Park. It was 20 years ago, 53:03 for a woman named Lesley Lehane.
If the trials course is to difficult of the men to run the A standard at then we run the risk of not sending 3 people. if they cannt earn the qualifying time until January 1st 2007 then that only gives them one marathon in the spring and the the trials to achieve it. if someone has a bad race in the spring and then runs well at the trials and is in the top 3 but the course was to hard to achieve the A standard, they will be left of the team and kind of getting screwed right?
christ. if our athletes can't achieve an A standard in two - i would they could easily run a spring marathon, as well - opportunities, then i don't want them on the team. we're not asking people to run 2:08 or something. if they can't run the time on anything but a flat course, why would we want them in beijing? it's not like running in beijing during the hot, humid summer is going to be a cakewalk either.
O.K. Got it. It's the 5 mile loop. Not running the north hills makes this more of a 2:12 course. Still not so easy, but manageable. Interestingly, the lower 5 mile loop is actually a bit over 5 miles, and 5 loops totals 25.716 miles, leaving only a half mile to be added.
I'm pretty sure that the half marathon record in Central Park is 1:02:56 and that is running the full loop twice, including the Harlem hills. This translates to a 2:07-2:08 being possible. If our guys can't run sub 2:15 then they don't deserve to go to the Olympics because they will have their clocks cleaned. You honestly don't think Meb can run sub 2:15? Look at his performance in Athens which was all uphill...or Boston, which rolls up and down the entire way.
It is not out of the question that Meb, Culpepper, Sell, and Ritz could have a bad race in the spring of 2007 (ie not finish, craps, ect). That would put them in a position to have to run fast at the trials. And I am guessing you would like at least a couple of these guys on the team.If the trials course is difficult it makes it harder to be on the team regardless of the individuals talent.Nowhere Man
chuck d wrote:
christ. if our athletes can't achieve an A standard in two - i would they could easily run a spring marathon, as well - opportunities, then i don't want them on the team. we're not asking people to run 2:08 or something. if they can't run the time on anything but a flat course, why would we want them in beijing? it's not like running in beijing during the hot, humid summer is going to be a cakewalk either.
If anybody stops and thinks about this, it's obvious that this is going to be a huge spectator event. I drove over to the trials when they were in Birmingham on a cold and windy day, and downtown was hopping. So NYC on marathon weekend: well, to start with, you're going to have most of the Sunday (non-trials) marathoners and their families out there--call it 80,000 people--because this is just too damn good to miss. Then you're going to have thousands of other distance runners from the Tri-State area: HS, collegiate, post-collegiate, serious kibbitzers. You're going to have serious runners from a much wider area than that--call it day's drive distance--who just won't be able to stop themselves from hopping in the car and watching this mano a mano go down. Then, this being NYC, you're going to have the additional thousands who show up because it's the biggest party in the Park that day and the local news has been hyping it. Then you're going to have some spillover from the ordinary crowds that show up in Central Park on a fall Saturday....
Must I go on? This will be huge, and fun. It will certainly add to the rising curve of interest in elite American running--especially considering the all-American field.