Ok, so we're saying that Cole can kick at 51.x sec in a 1500 or 5000 race (yes, his latest kick was 52.x but that was mostly in lane 2 right?) but he couldn't run 47.x in a 400?
Ok, so we're saying that Cole can kick at 51.x sec in a 1500 or 5000 race (yes, his latest kick was 52.x but that was mostly in lane 2 right?) but he couldn't run 47.x in a 400?
Yes, this gets covered ad nauseam here. Trying to compare sprint speed to distance runner speed is apples to oranges.
The first issue is the start. A flying start does wonders for a distance runner. Out of the blocks, a sprinter had already gained ~1s advantage over the distance runner because the distance runner has zero acceleration abilities.
Nick Symmonds was way faster, pure speed wise, than Hocker. He recorded a 47.x open 400m. Most of the elite 800 guys right now will run 45–47s for an open 400. Some might dip into the 44s and some maybe cap out at 48. If Hocker had 47 speed, he'd easily be running 1:43s and 1:42s.
Ok, so we're saying that Cole can kick at 51.x sec in a 1500 or 5000 race (yes, his latest kick was 52.x but that was mostly in lane 2 right?) but he couldn't run 47.x in a 400?
A possibly better way to view this is through under-distance times.
What's Cole's 100 or 200 PR? Can't say for certain, but I can promise none of these guys are running any faster than 11.7 or 11.8, and that's if they're lucky. 200 times? Well, they've got a bad start, but they're very strong, endurance wise. Let's be generous and say they run their 100m PR and follow it up with 11 flat for the 2nd half of the 200. A very generous estimate puts these guys as having a 200m best of 22.high. That's very, very generous. Likely closer to 23 low.
A very general rule for 200m to 400m times is 2x200m + 4s. 23x2+4 = 50. We know these guys have insane aerobic and anaerobic strength, and their bad start matters less in a 400. But, we can't expect them to approach a 400m time that close to their 200m best. That would be close 200m x 2 + 1s. No one can do that. If someone could, we'd see 400m runners doing a lot more aerobic work.
48.6 split on a tired legs. Say he can split 47.6 on fresh legs, or even a little bit faster. It still points to no better than 48 low in the open.
I'd agree. Capable of 48.low, fresh and in "peak shape" and that also means we'll never actually see it, because why waste the effort?
I think a lot of miler speeds get overrated because it *is* very easy for a lot of these guys to run a 49. But given skillsets + how they train, they'd still struggle to go much faster than that.
I'd agree. Capable of 48.low, fresh and in "peak shape" and that also means we'll never actually see it, because why waste the effort?
I think a lot of miler speeds get overrated because it *is* very easy for a lot of these guys to run a 49. But given skillsets + how they train, they'd still struggle to go much faster than that.
+1,000
People who have never seriously sprinted or coached sprints tend to drastically overestimate their own and others sprinting ability. It's an entirely different world.
I once ran 52 in an open 440 (I'm old). So got me to thinking what Hocker's top end 400 might be. Anyone witness a split on relay? or open 400?
I don’t have a specific source for this, but I distinctly remember seeing something about Cole hocker splitting a 49 for a relay leg. This was within the last 2y. I think SOVA might’ve done a 4x4 at some random east coast meet?
I'd agree. Capable of 48.low, fresh and in "peak shape" and that also means we'll never actually see it, because why waste the effort?
I think a lot of miler speeds get overrated because it *is* very easy for a lot of these guys to run a 49. But given skillsets + how they train, they'd still struggle to go much faster than that.
+1,000
People who have never seriously sprinted or coached sprints tend to drastically overestimate their own and others sprinting ability. It's an entirely different world.
Cole wouldn't come within a second of qualifying for D3 nationals in the open 400, for the same reason why Rai Benjamin wouldn't come within ten seconds of qualifying for D3 nationals in the mile.
That 48.7 split was the last of four events of pacing that day for Hocker, so it's fair to say that he can run 47.
No it is not. Read what the posters above have been saying. A 47.xx open 400m is an entirely different realm than splitting 48s or closing a 5k in 52.
Just because a distance athlete has good speed reserve and endurance doesn't mean they can run faster in an open sprint race. ENDURANCE NEVER CREATES SPEED.
Yes, this gets covered ad nauseam here. Trying to compare sprint speed to distance runner speed is apples to oranges.
The first issue is the start. A flying start does wonders for a distance runner. Out of the blocks, a sprinter had already gained ~1s advantage over the distance runner because the distance runner has zero acceleration abilities.
Nick Symmonds was way faster, pure speed wise, than Hocker. He recorded a 47.x open 400m. Most of the elite 800 guys right now will run 45–47s for an open 400. Some might dip into the 44s and some maybe cap out at 48. If Hocker had 47 speed, he'd easily be running 1:43s and 1:42s.
Yes, this gets covered ad nauseam here. Trying to compare sprint speed to distance runner speed is apples to oranges.
The first issue is the start. A flying start does wonders for a distance runner. Out of the blocks, a sprinter had already gained ~1s advantage over the distance runner because the distance runner has zero acceleration abilities.
Nick Symmonds was way faster, pure speed wise, than Hocker. He recorded a 47.x open 400m. Most of the elite 800 guys right now will run 45–47s for an open 400. Some might dip into the 44s and some maybe cap out at 48. If Hocker had 47 speed, he'd easily be running 1:43s and 1:42s.
Guy right here knows his stuff
I wanna know what all you experts think he could run in the 400m if he completely quit training for distances and just focused on the 400m?
I wanna know what all you experts think he could run in the 400m if he completely quit training for distances and just focused on the 400m?
That's a more interesting question.
The main factor here is his fast twitch/explosive potential. I'm not all that into the science of this stuff, so apologies if I get some of this a little twisted.
Everyone is born with some level of explosive ability. It's a combination of muscle composition, muscle and tendon and body proportions, and nervous system abilities. Most people don't make huge gains in this department. That's a fancy way of saying, "Sprinters are born, not trained." We've all witnessed some freaks go from slowpoke to the fastest sprinter in your town, it happens, but it's very rare.
So it all depends, how much upside does Cole have to gain by focusing entirely on sprinting? I'd say not too much more than he currently has. If he had the potential to be lightning fast, he'd be taking full of advantage of it. He'd cook some fast 800s.
I'd say if he can run 48 low off of 1500/5k training, he could be a 47 low to mid performer off of sprint training.