You have to remember that the mile is the marquee event for pretty much any male high schooler in the US, mostly due to the easy milestone of sub 4.
If the girls had such a nice perfect number to chase (sub 5 would be nice, but far too easy), then Webb's record would be more impressive because the amount of chasing the record would be similar for both genders.
Good question. I think we should look at more than just relation to the world record, particularly because the women's world record is more of an outlier compared to the men's.
Some other metrics to consider:
World Standing All-Time: Webb was 125th at the time, Hedengren is now 110th
USA Standing All-Time: Webb was 19th at the time, Hedengren is now 20th
High School Margin: Webb broke the record by under 2 seconds; Hedengren is now more than 4 seconds faster than the #2 girl
We also need to consider that Webb broke the record while running in the Bowerman Mile, with the advantage of running behind pros the whole way. Hedengren had pacing help for the first two laps and then had to run the last two all on her own.
Based on the metrics I listed and the contextual differences in their races, I think Hedengren's record is objectively better.
That said, there is a subjective factor that must also be considered, which is the cultural significance of Webb's record at the time. He broke a legendary record that had stood for over 35 years. He was the first American high schooler to run under 4 in over 33 years. And he did it during an era in which U.S. distance running was in the doldrums. His run inspired the next generation of U.S. milers, and it was one of the key moments that helped revive American distance running. Plus, it was broadcast on national television! It was a special moment I'll never forget watching live.
We really can't understate how important Webb's record was for U.S. distance running. He (along with Ritz and Hall) represented the vanguard of a new generation of record-breaking American distance runners. In contrast, Hedengren seems like the latest (albeit clearly the greatest) in a steady production of high school female phenoms the last 15-16 years going back to Jordan Hasay. Hedengren is clearly special, but Webb seemed even more special, particularly in light of the sorry state of American distance running at the time.
So, my head says Hedengren, but my heart says Webb.
Arguement for Webb. It was by far the best HS distance performance we had seen since Ryun. On the other hand is this mile really any better than cain’s 1500m in non super shoes a decade ago? Not really.
But you are sort of splitting hairs. Both are way up the greatest HS distance runs of all time…
Hedengren's not even a miler. With just 2:05-6 800m speed, this distance is too short for her. She crushed the record with no one to run with the last two laps, yet she is better at 3k/5k, lacking really good speed. To me, this indicates that she will be in the 14:40s at 5000m this year and a finalist at Trials. Top five at NCAA xc in the fall is well within her reach, maybe even a title, depending on how many top Kenyan women are in the NCAA.
The arc of her 4-year hs career - including xc -- is arguably the greatest in hs girls distance running history. With still a couple months of racing to go.
Concomitantly, this senior year Jane has pieced together -- September through now -- is the greatest there's ever been.
As we all remember the Ritz/Webb/Hall trio for upping the standards for hs boys 25 years ago, Hedengren/Englehardt likely will be remembered years from now as the duo which set similarly jaw-dropping barriers for future hs girls to target.
Good question. I think we should look at more than just relation to the world record, particularly because the women's world record is more of an outlier compared to the men's.
Some other metrics to consider:
World Standing All-Time: Webb was 125th at the time, Hedengren is now 110th
USA Standing All-Time: Webb was 19th at the time, Hedengren is now 20th
High School Margin: Webb broke the record by under 2 seconds; Hedengren is now more than 4 seconds faster than the #2 girl
We also need to consider that Webb broke the record while running in the Bowerman Mile, with the advantage of running behind pros the whole way. Hedengren had pacing help for the first two laps and then had to run the last two all on her own.
Based on the metrics I listed and the contextual differences in their races, I think Hedengren's record is objectively better.
That said, there is a subjective factor that must also be considered, which is the cultural significance of Webb's record at the time. He broke a legendary record that had stood for over 35 years. He was the first American high schooler to run under 4 in over 33 years. And he did it during an era in which U.S. distance running was in the doldrums. His run inspired the next generation of U.S. milers, and it was one of the key moments that helped revive American distance running. Plus, it was broadcast on national television! It was a special moment I'll never forget watching live.
We really can't understate how important Webb's record was for U.S. distance running. He (along with Ritz and Hall) represented the vanguard of a new generation of record-breaking American distance runners. In contrast, Hedengren seems like the latest (albeit clearly the greatest) in a steady production of high school female phenoms the last 15-16 years going back to Jordan Hasay. Hedengren is clearly special, but Webb seemed even more special, particularly in light of the sorry state of American distance running at the time.
So, my head says Hedengren, but my heart says Webb.
If Webb inspired a new generation of milers, why was it another 10 years before one broke 4:00? To date, there has been only one runner to be within 3 seconds of Webb’s record. When HSers watched Webb’s record, they saw something they could never do.
Definitely worth noting that Jane definitively has the fastest 1500/mile time ever and Webb doesn’t. I know the topic is specifically the mile, but I still think the 15 is relevant
Definitely worth noting that Jane definitively has the fastest 1500/mile time ever and Webb doesn’t. I know the topic is specifically the mile, but I still think the 15 is relevant
The 1.08 conversion is very accurate, so either distance can be compared to the other.
If Webb inspired a new generation of milers, why was it another 10 years before one broke 4:00? To date, there has been only one runner to be within 3 seconds of Webb’s record. When HSers watched Webb’s record, they saw something they could never do.
People running sub-4 while in high school isn't the only indicator to gauge Webb's influence. Look at the guys who started emerging after him: Leo Manzano, Andrew Wheating, Matthew Centrowitz, German Fernandez. None of them broke 4 in high school, but they had impressive achievements. Others who followed after Webb's record-breaking run in 2001 included Jeff See (ran a sophomore-class record 4:06 in 2003), AJ Acosta, Dorian Ulrey, and Garrett Heath.
Expanding the scope to American distance running more broadly, guys who followed Webb/The Big 3 included Chris Solinsky, Galen Rupp, Josh McDougal, Ben True, Chris Derrick, and Luke Puskedra.
Webb was so popular that when he went to Michigan, Nike released the Kennedy spikes in the school's colors.
Webb was an enormous influence for many young American distance runners in the 2000s. It would be naive to suggest otherwise.
Good question. I think we should look at more than just relation to the world record, particularly because the women's world record is more of an outlier compared to the men's.
Some other metrics to consider:
World Standing All-Time: Webb was 125th at the time, Hedengren is now 110th
USA Standing All-Time: Webb was 19th at the time, Hedengren is now 20th
High School Margin: Webb broke the record by under 2 seconds; Hedengren is now more than 4 seconds faster than the #2 girl
We also need to consider that Webb broke the record while running in the Bowerman Mile, with the advantage of running behind pros the whole way. Hedengren had pacing help for the first two laps and then had to run the last two all on her own.
Based on the metrics I listed and the contextual differences in their races, I think Hedengren's record is objectively better.
That said, there is a subjective factor that must also be considered, which is the cultural significance of Webb's record at the time. He broke a legendary record that had stood for over 35 years. He was the first American high schooler to run under 4 in over 33 years. And he did it during an era in which U.S. distance running was in the doldrums. His run inspired the next generation of U.S. milers, and it was one of the key moments that helped revive American distance running. Plus, it was broadcast on national television! It was a special moment I'll never forget watching live.
We really can't understate how important Webb's record was for U.S. distance running. He (along with Ritz and Hall) represented the vanguard of a new generation of record-breaking American distance runners. In contrast, Hedengren seems like the latest (albeit clearly the greatest) in a steady production of high school female phenoms the last 15-16 years going back to Jordan Hasay. Hedengren is clearly special, but Webb seemed even more special, particularly in light of the sorry state of American distance running at the time.
So, my head says Hedengren, but my heart says Webb.
Comparing it to 1500 is better imo. 3:49-50.xx has been achieved by over 5 women. She ran the equivalent of 4:03. 3:26.xx has been done by 4* men (3 if you exclude Kiprop). And 3:53 is like a 3:35. So 9 vs 13 seconds off. Even with women being roughly 10% slower, that’s greater. And she had the spikes which Webb didn’t
If Webb inspired a new generation of milers, why was it another 10 years before one broke 4:00? To date, there has been only one runner to be within 3 seconds of Webb’s record. When HSers watched Webb’s record, they saw something they could never do.
People running sub-4 while in high school isn't the only indicator to gauge Webb's influence. Look at the guys who started emerging after him: Leo Manzano, Andrew Wheating, Matthew Centrowitz, German Fernandez. None of them broke 4 in high school, but they had impressive achievements. Others who followed after Webb's record-breaking run in 2001 included Jeff See (ran a sophomore-class record 4:06 in 2003), AJ Acosta, Dorian Ulrey, and Garrett Heath.
Expanding the scope to American distance running more broadly, guys who followed Webb/The Big 3 included Chris Solinsky, Galen Rupp, Josh McDougal, Ben True, Chris Derrick, and Luke Puskedra.
Webb was so popular that when he went to Michigan, Nike released the Kennedy spikes in the school's colors.
Webb was an enormous influence for many young American distance runners in the 2000s. It would be naive to suggest otherwise.
Given who his dad is, you think Centro needed Webb’s existence to become a great runner? Rupp was already being coached by Salazar in HS and was actually better than Ritz.
Again, somebody else running fast doesn’t change someone’s ceiling.