Question about "Lactic Tolerance" and Lactate Threshold for sprint oriented mid-d athletes

Merchant of Venice Beach wrote:

Not sure if I'm using the best terms for the title of this thread but hopefully I can elaborate below and reference where I'm coming from. My question is, what role does Lactate Threshold running play in the training of a more sprint based mid distance runner (someone who runs 400/800 and 1500 at longest). Biggest question comes from looking at Canova's posts about Marcello Fiasconaro.

In thread below, Canova notes that March had an LT speed of 17.22 km/h when starting and improved to 18.25 km/h before the 1973 WR. Canova notes that this is big change from WR pace run of 27.772 km/h of WR run, the highest difference between race and LT speed of examples of Italian sub 1:44 Canova lists. Canova's point is the classic aerobic/anaerobic breakdown of each event is really only based on individuals and has no blanket. March, as long sprinter, could be lactic for longer and go much past threshold for race paces. I interpret this as something like "lactic tolerance" developed through sprint training.

Canova's post on thread:

Link:www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?th...

But, then I see in this post from Canova that March also did 10k runs between 35' and 33' everyday plus sprint work Tuesday and Friday with intense sessions. Based on the LT info, these 10k daily runs seem fast and mixing in sprints seems very hard training but I'm wondering if thinking of this was intentional for building LT of an athlete who tolerates lactate and can train hard while building low LT. Basically wondering how people would explain training like this or thinking behind this incorporation of 10k runs at/below LT for sprint based 800 guy while also doing hard speed.

Canova earlier in same thread outlining the training:

Link:www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?th...

MoVB

CopperRunner wrote:

From my experience and somewhat surface level knowledge of the physiology surrounding those energy systems, threshold has a minor direct impact on 800m race fitness, virtually no impact on 400m race fitness, BUT does allow you to recover a lot quicker and run more quality reps during speed endurance and oxygen debt workouts.

I’ve found for myself and other athletes, even 8x200m at 800m pace with 2:00 rest can be a pretty tall order if you aren’t doing that high quality aerobic work, but when you are getting either a tempo run or threshold intervals in, you can start doing workouts like 5-6x300m on 2:00 rest which is both a harder workout and a more productive workout for 800m.

In college, me and a training partner, who was a 46.high 400m guy and only ran 15-20 mpw type guy who wasn’t running tempos would do a workout where you run 200m nearly all out, rest 30 seconds and run 200m again. Rest time was about 10 minutes between sets and we would only do 2-3 of them. He’d smoke me on the first rep, i’d be right behind him on the second, and then I’d beat him for the rest of the workout. I’d feel completely fresh after the 10 minute rest and he’d still be panting a bit by the time we’d start the next set. I felt I was getting more out of the workout, because I was able to go 23.5-24.0 and 26.0-27.0 on every set, while he would go about 22.0-22.5, 25.5-26.5, and then not break 26 and 28 for the rest of the workout. I attribute a lot of this to me going and running threshold/steadystate with the distance guys while he would go do extensive tempo with the 200/400 crew.

Merchant of Venice Beach wrote:

CopperRunner wrote:

From my experience and somewhat surface level knowledge of the physiology surrounding those energy systems, threshold has a minor direct impact on 800m race fitness, virtually no impact on 400m race fitness, BUT does allow you to recover a lot quicker and run more quality reps during speed endurance and oxygen debt workouts.

I’ve found for myself and other athletes, even 8x200m at 800m pace with 2:00 rest can be a pretty tall order if you aren’t doing that high quality aerobic work, but when you are getting either a tempo run or threshold intervals in, you can start doing workouts like 5-6x300m on 2:00 rest which is both a harder workout and a more productive workout for 800m.

In college, me and a training partner, who was a 46.high 400m guy and only ran 15-20 mpw type guy who wasn’t running tempos would do a workout where you run 200m nearly all out, rest 30 seconds and run 200m again. Rest time was about 10 minutes between sets and we would only do 2-3 of them. He’d smoke me on the first rep, i’d be right behind him on the second, and then I’d beat him for the rest of the workout. I’d feel completely fresh after the 10 minute rest and he’d still be panting a bit by the time we’d start the next set. I felt I was getting more out of the workout, because I was able to go 23.5-24.0 and 26.0-27.0 on every set, while he would go about 22.0-22.5, 25.5-26.5, and then not break 26 and 28 for the rest of the workout. I attribute a lot of this to me going and running threshold/steadystate with the distance guys while he would go do extensive tempo with the 200/400 crew.

Interesting! Were you running xc? Noted in going back through Canova thread that he mentions one reason March moved towards 800 was injury in 1972 before Olympics and building back up with idea of becoming 800 runner, thought was he could better compete without risky top end speed training. Canova mentions March training on grass fields and doing more endurance work in winter 1972 into 1973 (kind of a tuned down xc season to comeback with). But also curious about anecdotal responses to new training stimulus. Personally always tempos tough and would always rather have fast track stuff but do agree it made fast track stuff easier to recover.

MoVB

CopperRunner wrote:

Yes, I ran XC, my coach for the most part only raced me in the 5k/6k/8k races and I was usually a mid-packer in the B or open races so pretty uncompetetive. I wouldn’t have been on the XC team if I wasn’t conference competitive in track. My XC season would usually get shut down about a month early for me to start working on middle distance as well. It was mostly a way to keep me motivated during my base phase and to have a tangible way of measuring fitness.

I do think the top end speed training is pretty important for an 800m runner, and I also think it’s really not risky if you do it right. Lots of mid-d distance coaches, even the great ones have an obsession with keeping the rep count high and the rest times minimal. That’s not how you safely develop speed. The one kid who just broke the indoor HS 800m record at the age of 16 said his favorite speed workout is 2x300m and then 4x150m with 8-10 minutes rest. In the comment section of the interview I saw a lot of people criticizing this type of workout but it’s absolutely essential. I started making huge gains in the 800m when I started doing workouts like 5x300m with as much rest as I wanted, 6x200m or 150-200-250-300-250-200-150 with again as much rest as I wanted. I’m in the camp that speed endurance work is not speed endurance work if you are going into each rep already gasping for air.

CopperRunner wrote:

I lean more towards 2-4 minute intervals. Ive been taking a look at what Under Armors pro 800 group is doing. I think it’s mostly 400/800 and pure 800 guys.

They tend to do workouts like 4x4:00 and then 4x2:00 off of 1-2 minute jogging recovery. Pace looks to be about 5:30-5:40 per mile for the 4:00 intervals and then they bring it down to 5:10-5:20 for the 2:00 intervals. That’s really not that fast for guys running in the ballpark of 1:44-1:48. I have one of the kids i’m coaching who’s in shooting range of sub 2:00 run a workout like this at 5:55-6:10 pace for the first 4 intervals and then cut down to 5:35-5:45 pace for the final 4. He’s been lopping 5-10 seconds off of his mile PB every race this indoor season and successfully increasing workout volume so I suppose it’s working well for him. He’s ran 52.4, 2:04, and 4:48 this indoor season for reference.

I do think 400m intervals could work great as well. Something like 12x400m in 1:25-1:30 with somewhere in that 0:30 to 1:00 recovery range for athletes looking to run around 2:00. Maybe even a good precursor for the workout above.

Both of those workouts probably sound ineffective to a true distance runner, but true 400/800 types usually have a really big performance drop off after 1500m/mile and as I’m sure you know, their 30 minute let alone 60 minute race pace is going to be shockingly slow compared to how they perform on the track. These are people who typically see a 5-6 mile run as a bit daunting. You’re gonna approach threshold a lot differently for a 2:00ish minute 800m long distance kid who can go run a local half marathon and win it vs a speed based kid who thanks god for every stop light on the 5 mile “easy” runs.

Merchant of Venice Beach wrote:

CopperRunner wrote:

I lean more towards 2-4 minute intervals. Ive been taking a look at what Under Armors pro 800 group is doing. I think it’s mostly 400/800 and pure 800 guys.

They tend to do workouts like 4x4:00 and then 4x2:00 off of 1-2 minute jogging recovery. Pace looks to be about 5:30-5:40 per mile for the 4:00 intervals and then they bring it down to 5:10-5:20 for the 2:00 intervals. That’s really not that fast for guys running in the ballpark of 1:44-1:48. I have one of the kids i’m coaching who’s in shooting range of sub 2:00 run a workout like this at 5:55-6:10 pace for the first 4 intervals and then cut down to 5:35-5:45 pace for the final 4. He’s been lopping 5-10 seconds off of his mile PB every race this indoor season and successfully increasing workout volume so I suppose it’s working well for him. He’s ran 52.4, 2:04, and 4:48 this indoor season for reference.

I do think 400m intervals could work great as well. Something like 12x400m in 1:25-1:30 with somewhere in that 0:30 to 1:00 recovery range for athletes looking to run around 2:00. Maybe even a good precursor for the workout above.

Both of those workouts probably sound ineffective to a true distance runner, but true 400/800 types usually have a really big performance drop off after 1500m/mile and as I’m sure you know, their 30 minute let alone 60 minute race pace is going to be shockingly slow compared to how they perform on the track. These are people who typically see a 5-6 mile run as a bit daunting. You’re gonna approach threshold a lot differently for a 2:00ish minute 800m long distance kid who can go run a local half marathon and win it vs a speed based kid who thanks god for every stop light on the 5 mile “easy” runs.

Going back, also think this is important. Did a lot of threshold work past summer and fall but had lots of struggles with pacing. Wasn't using anything other than watch pace but every calculator I used wasn't getting the feel right. Always had issues with using pace calculators but think it is especially noticeable when projecting times for a HM or M pace for stuff like 10' reps. Had to swallow a lot of pride and slow down but think shorter time reps would've been more effective looking back. Thought with age might get my Daniels VDOT paces more in line but still find that anything over a mile drops off a cliff.

MoVB

Merchant of Venice Beach wrote:

CopperRunner wrote:

Lots of middle distance athletes including myself are doing most of their threshold work on the treadmill.

I like it because you run the pace you set your treadmill to, no faster no slower, and you don’t need to account for variables like weather and terrain.

Respect to you. Can't do treadmill runs personally. Lucky to have flat beach bike paths to do threshold. But also curious do you always break up LT runs into minute sets? Personally used to always do continuous tempo runs until this past year when started doing broken T as 3', 5', and 10' reps. Found this was better to get more work at LT efforts but also felt maybe missed some endurance benefit from continuous run. Struck me that Canova outlined March doing 10k LT runs and doing them everyday but maybe that's product of the time where continuous tempos were thought better than broken "cruise intervals." Again, curious what others think on this or have found from anecdotal experience.

MoVB