If there were no Olympics I think Khalid would be viewed as the greatest marathoner of all time. as it stands now I think he is only the most talented. Maybe he'll get an Olympic win in 2008 to solidify his spot as one of the greatest and maybe even become viewed as the greatest marathoner.
he is the best regardless of championships medals. why doesn't everyone quit dissing him? twice world record holder, most sub-twosixes ever, dramatic win in the best marathon ever in 2002 (over both Tergat and Geb).
El G was undeniably the best miler ever even w/out athens; give the same courtesy to Khalid - he loves the USA and remember that he's not done competing yet.
This may be a little too simplistic, but if I think of a distance and a given runners name doesn't immediately come to mind, I don't really consider them to be a "best ever" contender...regardless of stats. I think of 10k, Geb. I think of 1500, I think of El G. I think of 800, I think of Coe, then Kipketer. Who do you think of when you hear 200m? If it's not that kind of instantaneous association, it's not a fit.
Yes, I think he is the best marathoner ever, despite his lack of major championship medals. No one has run as fast as often as he has or won as many big-league marathons. Many of the major marathons that he has won have had fields stronger and deeper than those in the Olympics or Worlds. The London race was the greatest marathon in my memory. In winning it, Khalid ran two track legends off their feet in the final miles AND set a world record. You can't ask for more than that.
will wrote:
This may be a little too simplistic, but if I think of a distance and a given runners name doesn't immediately come to mind, I don't really consider them to be a "best ever" contender...regardless of stats. I think of 10k, Geb. I think of 1500, I think of El G. I think of 800, I think of Coe, then Kipketer. Who do you think of when you hear 200m? If it's not that kind of instantaneous association, it's not a fit.
that's an interesting point...but then, who do you think of when you hear "marathon"? i have a name for most events, but not that one. bikila maybe.
If it isn't Khannouchi, who would it be? His only blemish is his lack of a global championship medal. But all of the other candidates have at least as many glaring blotches on their competitive records.
It all boils down to whether you rate championship honors above competitive record and series of marks. Khannouchi is far and away the best ever in the latter two categories. No one can even remotely make a case against that. He has beaten virtually every major player in the game, and he's done it with some of the fastest times ever. It practically required world records to beat what at the times were the number 3 performances of all time (Tanui's 2:06:16 and Tergat's 2:05:48). With three 2:05s and four low 2:07s, his is the dominant name on the all-time performance list.
Some might say that without a WC or OG gold, Khannouchi can't get the job done in "the big ones" or "when it counts." But in an era of professional marathoning, races like Chicago and (especially of late) London are "the big ones," bigger in hype (and possibly even in prestige), number of superstars competing, and payout (with bonuses for fast times) than the Olympic marathon is. Khannouchi has by light years the best competitive record in those prize money races.
Molto buono.
If it isn't Khannouchi, who would it be?[quote]runmad wrote:
A dead heat with Derek Clayton for guts.
The 2nd best marathon nation -- Japan -- do not run the so-call big marathon in the west; the target the Olympics, WC, and Asian Games exclusively.So do most americans, ethopian, korean, brazilians etc. The Kenyan are an exception.
Luigi Vercotti wrote:
If it isn't Khannouchi, who would it be? His only blemish is his lack of a global championship medal. But all of the other candidates have at least as many glaring blotches on their competitive records.
It all boils down to whether you rate championship honors above competitive record and series of marks. Khannouchi is far and away the best ever in the latter two categories. No one can even remotely make a case against that. He has beaten virtually every major player in the game, and he's done it with some of the fastest times ever. It practically required world records to beat what at the times were the number 3 performances of all time (Tanui's 2:06:16 and Tergat's 2:05:48). With three 2:05s and four low 2:07s, his is the dominant name on the all-time performance list.
Some might say that without a WC or OG gold, Khannouchi can't get the job done in "the big ones" or "when it counts." But in an era of professional marathoning, races like Chicago and (especially of late) London are "the big ones," bigger in hype (and possibly even in prestige), number of superstars competing, and payout (with bonuses for fast times) than the Olympic marathon is. Khannouchi has by light years the best competitive record in those prize money races.
Limo has a chance to be better.
Here are their 6 fastest races (1st number is performance rank) and results:
.3 2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi 1 London 14.04.2002
.4 2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi 1 Chicago 24.10.1999
.7 2:05:56 Khalid Khannouchi 1 Chicago 13.10.2002
.9 2:06:14 Felix Limo 1 Rotterdam 04.04.2004
25 2:06:39 Felix Limo 1 London 23.04.2006
28 2:06:42 Felix Limo 2 Amsterdam 19.10.2003
29 2:06:44 Felix Limo 1 Berlin 26.09.2004
53 2:07:01 Khalid Khannouchi 1 Chicago 22.10.2000
54 2:07:02 Felix Limo 1 Chicago 09.10.2005
58 2:07:04 Khalid Khannouchi 4 London 23.04.2006
67 2:07:10 Khalid Khannouchi 1 Chicago 19.10.1997
425 2:09:01 Felix Limo 3 Rotterdam 10.04.2005
Definitely, KK has won more of the bigger races, both London and Chicago '02 being the biggest, and 5 of his 6 fastest times yielded wins, so qualitatively he has the edge over most anyone, but Limo is young (25), and has a good chance of racking up many more big wins.
Amazingly, KK ran his 5th fastest career time Sunday.
But Limo won 4 different major marathons...
2:06:14 Felix Limo 1 Rotterdam 04.04.2004
2:06:39 Felix Limo 1 London 23.04.2006
29 2:06:44 Felix Limo 1 Berlin 26.09.2004
54 2:07:02 Felix Limo 1 Chicago 09.10.2005
There is one other factor that might prevent KK from being The Best... he has really only won in Chicago and London. And I realize that is a stupid statment since those are generally the two most competitive marathons. But I think a win in NYC, for example, might add a dynamic that is missing from his resume.
Good job Mr. Monti. That is doing your job.
stipe wrote:
There is one other factor that might prevent KK from being The Best... he has really only won in Chicago and London. And I realize that is a stupid statment since those are generally the two most competitive marathons. But I think a win in NYC, for example, might add a dynamic that is missing from his resume.
Wow, I was wondering about his victories at such insignificant venues. Nothing anyone does in life has any real significance unless New York is involved. Thank you for pointing this out to all the unsophisticated masses who have the misfortune of living elsewhere.
IMO, he was history's most unbeatable for a few years. He broke Geb & Tergat, while setting WR's and was truly a 'strength' marathoner, who came alive the last few miles regardless of pace. At his best, he's my betting favorite over anyone. At the same time, it isn't fair to the present/past Gold Medal winners to call him the best.
No. That would go to Tergat -- the WORLD RECORD HOLDER.
Hey, it was just an example of another highly competitive race on a challenging course. I could have used Boston, but then some would say that Boston isn't competitive enough. I could have used a World Championships, but wait, he dnf'd. My intent isn't to knock the guy. In fact, I'm awed by his run at London.
It's not where you win but who you beat. London and Chicago have been his greatest wins by far, and then Berlin.
The problem with Berlin is that his competition was not as deep- he outkicked Joseph Riri and Joshua Chelanga, who both put in their career bests at 2:06:49 and 2:07:05.
Rotterdam was not even a race after 32k, when Limo surged to leave 2nd place to Michael Rotich at 2:09:07, and Wagner da Silva third 2:11:52. That was a great effort, 9th fasest ever, but nobody at the end to push him. (he no doubt would have beaten anyone that day)
So the qualitative analysis must consider who you beat, and therefore London and then Chicago are Limo's greatest accompishments right now, and then his very fast time at Rotterdam.
As far as I'm concerned, until Sunday, KK was definitely at the top of the list for greatest marathoner. His competitive record and the fact that he ran in the most competitive marathons on earth for his victories, and his times, his times, wow...
AFter Sunday, I think there is one person in contention for the top spot that KK holds, and that is Felix Limo. But I think Felix needs to win at least two more races of top quality (since some of his wins haven't been as competitive) or set the WR in order to knock KK off the top perch. His record so far is very good.
Based on Sunday's performance, KK may make it very difficult for anyone to overtake him by adding another couple quality wins and times to his already staggering record. But Limo has more years to work with if he stays healthy.