Historically speaking...has Denna surpassed Joanie?

Meant to include, of course, her London win/AR today as well.

Duh, yes. Joanie's Oly win and AR certainly didn't come easy, but Deena has faced much tougher comp than Joanie did as women's marathoning is exponentially more competitive today than it was 20+ years ago. With all due respect to Ingrid and Grete, Paula and Ndereba and the Ethiopians and the Japanese pose much deeper top end competition.

Different women, 'Way different eras. That's like asking 'Was Bikila better than Lopes?'.

We in the US should consider ourselves happy to have 2 standup role models as Samuelson and Castor.

K A S T O R

JOANIE WAS GOLD....CASE CLOSED.

joan benoit.

pioneers and trailblazers always come out on top.

First American woman under 2:20 (and did it again) is plenty pioneering, considering what came between Joanie's prime and now.

Deena has faced tougher competition? Joanie blew away Ingrid and Grete arguably 2 of the best ever and ran away for a gold medal in an all woman's race. When Deena consistently runs with and beats Paula and the Ethiopians then we'll call her the best American ever.

Smarter than 88% of You wrote:

First American woman under 2:20 (and did it again) is plenty pioneering, considering what came between Joanie's prime and now.

nothing significantly pioneering about that. do you remember the names of the US women who first ran sub 2:45, sub 2:40, 2:35, sub 2:30, sub 2:25?

didnt think so.

What do you think happened in Athens, Chicago, and now London?

2:20 is a barrier that has stood for US women marathoners for decades during the big time era of the sport for women, unlike any of those others. Deena will be remembered as the first sub2:20 American woman for a good long time, bank on that.

Joan Benoit won an olympic gold medal. You can't compare the competition now to then without also considering the circustances of now and then. Joan was raising children and running in Maine SOLO while Deena has her entire world set up to cater to her every training need....from massages to chefs to ideal climates and altitude....Joan was living life...and competing at the top world level. She also competed against the best in the world, just like Deena...but won GOLD, not bronze.

Deena is not even close to Joan...Joan was a pioneer, a leader...someone who broke new ground for women. Deena is a great runner, world-class, but not above Joan. No way.

Nothing beats an Olympic Gold. Except for two Olympic Golds. Records are temporary - without looking it up, name the last five holders of the World Record. Now name the last five Olympic Champions. Which was easier?

la dee da. you can talk american this and american that all you want.

joan benoit's records and wins were of international caliber--she will be remembered for being the best in the WORLD, NOT the best in the US. kastor will be remembered for being a good american runner who won an international race.

I think Deena has done awesome-but Have to agree with Joan-The Olympic gold.

I know that this will generate all kinds of outrage, but Joanie got her times in real races, without pacemakers. Joanie's 1985 Chicago victory over Ingrid, with no pacemakers and some pretty stiff headwinds at times, was every bit as good as Deena's win in London. In fact, during the 1980s, if a woman had been paced like Deena was in London this year, she probably would have been disqualified, and her performance would certainly not have been regarded as legitimate in the eyes of many, if not most, of the real students of the sport. Although I didn't see Takahashi's Berlin race in 2001, or Paula's London race in 2003, Deena's use of male pacemakers to draft off of in London this year was probably as flagrant as I've ever seen by an elite female runner. If the IAAF were serious about its standards for records, it wouldn't recognize Deena's performance. My guess is that the ARRS will list it as an aided performance rather than as an American record.

In a real race, without pacemakers, I'd pick Joanie at her peak over Deena at her peak.

Deena has neither any world records nor any Olympics or WC wins. How can one even think of comparing her to Joan Benoit?

World records and winning the WCs and the Olympics are STILL the ultimate goals of every female marathoner, arent they? Has Deena achieved any of this?

she ran brilliantly in athens but was paced in Chicago and paced today in London.

Ingrid Kristiansen is still the 3rd fastest 10ker ever, an ungodly 30:13 at Oslo in 85. The only women who have run faster are the Chinses catepiller women. Joanie had plenty of top level competitors. I have to agree with a previous poster regarding the pacing issues at London. My vote is for Joanie