Nuttycombe vs Gans Creek: Stanford Ahead of BYU?

There's really no point in comparing teams this early in the season that ran completely different courses in completely different conditions with completely different fields.

Race videos from Youtube:

My impression is the guys who ran a given time at Nuttycombe vs Gans Creek are more accomplished. For example Nokes of BYU ran 23:21 with a 5000 pr of 13:29 while Marsankis of Maine ran 23:18 with a 5000 pr of 13:55. My impression from a few years back is the MO course is not the toughest. But, just my impressions.

Certainly true regarding the winners: Wolfe/13:10 vs Bird/13:51.

Nuttycombe weather warmer than expected, so times likely slowed by 5 secs or so compared to low-60s which Gans Creek had.

In terms of footing and elevation gain/loss, don't see much difference at all between courses.

Looks to me that both courses are slightly easier than Laverne Gibson/IN State, about the same as Panorama Farms/VA, while significantly easier than Greiner Family/OK State.

Still, basic premise holds: Stanford had a dream race. 1-5 spread of just 20 seconds is extraordinary. Even OK State, at its 2023 Cowboy Jamboree, started out last season with a 1st place total of only 26 points . . . but a 1-5 spread of 60 seconds:

ok.milesplit.com

Cowboy Jamboree 2023 - College Men

MileSplits official College Men formatted results for the 2023 Cowboy Jamboree in Stillwater OK.

Link:ok.milesplit.com/meets/569659-cowboy-j...

Stanford would have finished 3rd at Nuttycombe.

I was curious so I compared W 6K times for various courses. To my surprise not that much difference over the last 3 years Nationals on 3 different courses. And the 2023 Nuttycombe (in bad weather) was clearly the slowest.

Nah, it’s always fun to compare teams. There’s just no use in comparing times.

No use, but what else will fans do?

Lacctic’s algorithm scored them this way.

Bird’s 23:07 got an equivalent tic score of 13:50. Wolfe’s 23:04 got a 13:23.

If I understand that correctly, lacctic thinks Nutty’s course ran 24s slower.

Gans creek runs between 200 and 300 meters long

Nuttycomb clearly was the slower venue. Marco Langon ran 23;39 for 12th at Nutty ...20th in Gans ran faster, and he(Langon) is a 3:56 7:42 and 13:28 guy. And Liam Murphy who was third at Nutty in 23:08 and 14th at NC's last year is much much better at every distance than either Young brother.

Pamela Kosgei 19:50 early season by herself at OSU. Looks to be as advertised.

43 dudes broke 24, including some D2 guys?

Hmmm.

I see Stanford slipped Whittaker into the Women's Open race where she ran ok. not resting on her Olympic laurels I guess. just wants to hang with her teammates and get a little training in. wonder if she'll race anymore this year at all. also I saw Taylor freshman Jaynie Halterman won that race and easily. I recall her placing very high at Footlocker last year much to everybody's surprise. guess it wasnt a fluke.

I think you’re late in not knowing what Gans creek is

On a minor note, i found it interesting that Bird and teammate Collins Kipngok attacked the race with distinctly different tactics. Kipngok hung up top early and faded badly in the business end; Bird shadowed the lead pack, eased forward after 6k and slammed it home in the final 300. Curious to see if the duo works together somewhat in future races.

I am always happy to see Stanford run well. It's been quite a risk in recent years, however, banking on them at nats.

They are not deep and something always happens. BYU and NAU are more reliable.

What needs to be talked about is the video coverage of the 2 events:

Gans Creek: about half of the coverage was broken because of bad connection with the lead cart, making it difficult to follow the race and to see individuals making their moves (like Leo's move near the end of the race).

Nuttycombe: a combination of lead cart and drone. Anytime the cart video was bad quality, they switched to the drone to continue streaming excellent live coverage of the event. I also loved the elevation profile at the bottom of the video - excellent addition!

If we want to continue to build the sport, this problem must be prioritized. Any major cross country meet should have drone video coverage, especially on hilly courses where terrain will interrupt coverage by the lead cart.

I was at the Gans creek meet yesterday and it’s definitely a very favorable course for running fast. Some rolling hills but nothing particularly difficult.

Course consists of 1 2k loop and then 2 3k loops for the men. FWIW, the course was in pristine condition so that may also be a recipe for the quick times.

Yes. I acknowledge I am late to the game regarding this superb purpose-built xc facility.

But, better late than never. Now well prepared for 2025 when MO will hold the Gans Creek Classic in September, Pre Nationals in October then NCAAs in November. Also, now have a reason to pay attention to the NAIA champs which will be at Gans Creek this November.

Happy to read an earlier post which stated the course is actually 30 meters long. This makes sense. Gans Creek course was created from undeveloped prairie and woodlands. No restrictions like existing roads, power lines, picnic areas, golf bunkers and greens, etc. to work around. Course developers did not have to shoehorn the course into an existing developed park or golf course. Thus, no reason to make the course anything but accurate. The extra meters were likely added on to be conservative and make sure all the course distances are at least 3k/5k/6k/8k/10k.

No question the course is gently rolling, not flat. Evident from watching any number of videos dating back to the course tour video from October 2019.

However, no question the course is quite fast. Like Thomas Zimmer/WI and Panorama Farms/VA. Gans Creek & Thomas Zimmer have now have men's 8k CRs of 23:07 and 23:04, respectively while Panorama Farms is actually 22:55 with 4 guys under 23. Women's 6k CR for Gans Creek is now 19:50 -- which pales in comparison to 19:17 for Thomas Zimmer and 18:55 for Panorama Farms.

Thomas Zimmer & Panorama Farms have hosted NCAA championships while Gans Creek gets its chance next year. Thus, would expect the first two venues to have faster clockings due to hosting superior competitions. However, also suggests the possibility that Gans Creek might actually run a bit slower than Thomas Zimmer & Panorama Farms.

Regarding Friday's Gans Creek Classic, many are suggesting the competition was weak, thus casting a sideways glance at the proposition that Stanford men could possibly be good enough to challenge for a podium spot.

Here is a set of data points to suggest otherwise.

Gans Creek hosted the 2021 SEC Championships. Here are the results of the top-5 men + more at SECs, then NCAAs held that year at the (also fast) Tallahassee, FL course:

1 Eliud Kipsang/Alabama NCAAs: 48
2 Amon Kemboi/Arkansas NCAAs: 12
3 Mario G. Romo/Ole Miss NCAAs: 46
4 Victor Kiprop/Alabama NCAAs: DNF
5 Jacob McLeod/Arkansas NCAAs: 161
8 Michael Coccia/Ole' Miss NCAAs: 43
12 Emmanuel Cheboson/Arkansas NCAAs: 17
17 Gilbert Boit/Arkansas NCAAs: 15
22 Hillary Cheruiyot/Alabama NCAAs: 53

Some variance with poor results from #4 & #5, but overall, results suggest Stanford's top-5 are amongst the better NCAA D1 runners today with talent to reach AA status and top-20 finishes within reach.

That's spells podium to me.

. .. and the women's races even more interesting:

1 Mercy Chelangat/Alabama NCAAs: 2
2 Joyce Kimeli/Auburn NCAAs: 16
3 Krissy Gear/Arkansas NCAAs: 43
4 Parker Valby/Florida NCAAs: 27
5 Tori Herman/Kentucky NCAAs: 17
6 Sinta Vissa/Ole Miss NCAAs: 33
7 Flomena Asekol/Alabama NCAAs: 29
8 Amaris Tyynismaa/Alabama NCAAs: DNR
9 Sydney Seymour/Tennessee NCAAs: DNR
10 Isabel Van Camp/Arkansas NCAAs: 37

Chelangat ran 19:55 for the win. Isabel Van Camp in 10th ran 20:29.

Top-2 finishers at the Gans Creek Classic Friday morning broke Mercy's CR while Sophia Kennedy/Stanford essentially equaled it, also timing 19:55. Tenth place was 20:15.