CV pace, or Critical Velocity pace, is a term that's gained traction after Tom Schwartz introduced it as the "Golden Pace" but it's really just a confusing and redundant concept. Essentially, CV pace is often described as a pace you can hold for about 30-40 minutes, roughly aligning with your 10k race pace. Unlike Lactate Threshold (LT) pace, which is based on measurable physiological markers like blood lactate levels. Using terms like 10k pace is more straightforward and widely understood. There is no need to add unnecessary terms like CV pace it's better to stick with the tried-and-true terms that offer clarity and measurability.
CV pace is and was always a Dumb Concept
Training Advice/Discussion
General
-
4914
-
lol, measuring lactate is just as arbitrary. Which protocol? Using a meter that will give you +\- 30-100% different readings for the same pace?
This is a tired old topic.
2312 -
And using 10k pace +XX seconds….or 5k pace +XX seconds?
for what runner? The 35:00 minute 10k runner or the 55:00 runner?
The 15:00 5k runner or the 25:00 5k runner?
341 -
Paging lexel.
272 -
What is the difference between the 2 paces for most people? I think they are the same.
06 -
RunningJargon wrote:
CV pace, or Critical Velocity pace, is a term that's gained traction after Tom Schwartz introduced it as the "Golden Pace" but it's really just a confusing and redundant concept. Essentially, CV pace is often described as a pace you can hold for about 30-40 minutes, roughly aligning with your 10k race pace. Unlike Lactate Threshold (LT) pace, which is based on measurable physiological markers like blood lactate levels. Using terms like 10k pace is more straightforward and widely understood. There is no need to add unnecessary terms like CV pace it's better to stick with the tried-and-true terms that offer clarity and measurability.
i dunno i kind of like cv pace. i'm currently in about 435 mile shape and sometimes doing k's at 505 ("i pace") feels to harsh on the body and doing k's at 535 ("t pace") feels too easy, so doing k's at 520 pace ("cv pace") often feels like i'm getting the most bang for my workout buck
284 -
Tom is ultimately a good and successful coach, but it's intersting that his bread and butter is a pace that very few others seem to work with, or at least talk about very much. Right now the trend is threshold and even sub threshold--that's not to say this is a new type of training, just that's it's big time on trend right now. And of course there are still a lot of people working the vo2 max sessions. Coe even described the 5k pace to be "golden" for 800/1500 aerobic development and maintenance.
Drew Hunter is currently doing a ton of work at threshold and possibly even more sub threshold.
This post was edited 57 seconds after it was posted.224 -
RunningJargon wrote:
CV pace, or Critical Velocity pace, is a term that's gained traction after Tom Schwartz introduced it as the "Golden Pace" but it's really just a confusing and redundant concept. Essentially, CV pace is often described as a pace you can hold for about 30-40 minutes, roughly aligning with your 10k race pace. Unlike Lactate Threshold (LT) pace, which is based on measurable physiological markers like blood lactate levels. Using terms like 10k pace is more straightforward and widely understood. There is no need to add unnecessary terms like CV pace it's better to stick with the tried-and-true terms that offer clarity and measurability.
Maybe there's another reason that you missed?
According to one of the more important researchers, Professor Andy Jones, 10k pace for the best trained runners is the slowest race pace that elicits a VOmax towards the end of the race.
111 -
OK, OP: how will you promote “clarity and measurability” using 10K pace as your term when setting up a particular type of workout for a 34-minute 10k runner and a 48-minute 10k runner looking to improve?
60 -
Good enough wrote:
OK, OP: how will you promote “clarity and measurability” using 10K pace as your term when setting up a particular type of workout for a 34-minute 10k runner and a 48-minute 10k runner looking to improve?
Ooh, such a tough question 🤔 I don't know, maybe base your session on your pace?
27 -
but then again wrote:
Good enough wrote:
OK, OP: how will you promote “clarity and measurability” using 10K pace as your term when setting up a particular type of workout for a 34-minute 10k runner and a 48-minute 10k runner looking to improve?
Ooh, such a tough question 🤔 I don't know, maybe base your session on your pace?
On “your pace” = on your 10k race pace? Does 10k race pace provide the same type of training stimulus for those two runners?
60 -
CV, Threshold, LT2 - all garbage.
Run by feel.721 -
I agree that too much science is goofy. I had a coach who had the team do a 1 mile time trial the 1st week of practice and then went to the charts for every workout for every runner. The problem is that a 4:30 miler may run 5k at 16:30 while a 4:45 miler may run 16:00. 6x1000 should be faster for the faster 5k guy but he had the faster miler.trying to go faster.
120 -
RunningJargon wrote:
CV pace, or Critical Velocity pace, is a term that's gained traction after Tom Schwartz introduced it as the "Golden Pace" but it's really just a confusing and redundant concept. Essentially, CV pace is often described as a pace you can hold for about 30-40 minutes, roughly aligning with your 10k race pace. Unlike Lactate Threshold (LT) pace, which is based on measurable physiological markers like blood lactate levels. Using terms like 10k pace is more straightforward and widely understood. There is no need to add unnecessary terms like CV pace it's better to stick with the tried-and-true terms that offer clarity and measurability.
The 30-40' figure is just a rule of thumb, exactly like 60' for lactate threshold (LT2). Here's a really nice writeup of cv: . as a matter of fact it seems to me that CV is a more accurate threshold for pretty much any biological marker of fatigue, except for lactate.Lactate threshold does seem easier to use in practice, anecdotally that is an easier effort for me to dial into vs CV which, being sandwiched between vo2 max and threshold, can feel a lot like both. But maybe that's just because I don't do much of it tbh
121 -
be it wrote:
I agree that too much science is goofy. I had a coach who had the team do a 1 mile time trial the 1st week of practice and then went to the charts for every workout for every runner. The problem is that a 4:30 miler may run 5k at 16:30 while a 4:45 miler may run 16:00. 6x1000 should be faster for the faster 5k guy but he had the faster miler.trying to go faster.
Thats one problem using VDOT or other methods that assume a fixed pace decay.
Other models are far better at capturing individual physiology. Even CV is wrong…the base assumption is wrong.
I get why Daniel’s did what he did, though. Back in 1979, there weren’t PCs in everyone’s home and hand. Charts were/are useful, but limited. Nowadays we can get much better numerical descriptions of someone abilities.
12 -
There are so many different terms for workout paces right now. Some coaches use zone "1,2,3,4, XYZ." Others use CV/LT, etc. Others say near/maximal/supra threshold, etc.
00 -
tom's CV pace/sessions are the same as Nic bideau'S 8x1k off 60 sec session.
100 -
Good enough wrote:
but then again wrote:
Ooh, such a tough question 🤔 I don't know, maybe base your session on your pace?
On “your pace” = on your 10k race pace? Does 10k race pace provide the same type of training stimulus for those two runners?
Does it really matter if it's your race pace?
03 -
The more complicated a coach makes it sound, the more knowledgeable he sounds to the clueless contingent, the more money he makes.
120 -
Wow, haven’t heard about CV for a while. Is Tinman still alive? He was quite old last time I checked. And the Tinman pace calculator is no longer publicly accessible.
‘Core’ Tinman method features 800-1200 reps at CV and 30-40+ min tempos at marathon pace. Come to think of it, both could be workouts in ‘Norwegian threshold’ method, CV closer to LT2 and tempo to LT1. It doesn’t focus on near-threshold volume as much though. I guess one could sell CV training as a lower mileage adaptation of Norwegian approach. Perhaps quite a few coaches do just that now, having switched a fad.
211
What People Are Talking About On LetsRun
No top threads at the moment. Check back soon.