I read once (I think in Lore of Running) that Keinos and ryuns converted 1968 1500 times are equal to some of the greatest performences. What would you convert these times equal to from mexico citys altitude, 2240m. What is the world record for 2000m+ 15/mile or other events? What is the conversion factor? Is it true these results are worth something in the 3:4X for the mile?
1. Kip KEINO (KEN) 3:34.9 OR
2. Jim RYUN (USA) 3:37.8
I don't know anything about the conversion, but they are just under three seconds apart--a gap increased slightly over the length added to make a mile. So, if you're right, and they're worth 3:4x for the full mile (which I have a hard time believing, but I'll go with you on this one), they're certainly not worth the SAME 3:4x (ie the X variable varies).
Short answer:
Ryun's performance was heroic and about all that could be rationally expected in 1968 at that altitude.
Keino's performance (a lifetime best by quite a margin) was simply off the charts--a run that still (nearly) defines explanation.
Times run at Nairobi el 5500' compared with Keino's run at Mexico City el 7400'
Keino ran both the 10,000 and 5,000 before the 1500, making his performance even more legendary.
3:33.1A Laban Rotich KEN Nairobi 6/06/1998
3:34.0A Moses Kiptanui KEN Nairobi 6/13/1992
3:34.4A Erustus Limo KEN Nairobi 6/12/1999
3:34.8 Joseph Chesire KEN Nairobi 6/13/1992
3:34.8A Augustine Choge KEN Nairobi 5/07/2005
3:34.91A Kipchoge Keino KEN Mexico City 10/20/1968
Kip Keino is one of my favorite runners but he was helped by his teammate sacrificing himself by setting such a fast pace.
Ciudad de México wrote:
Times run at Nairobi el 5500' compared with Keino's run at Mexico City el 7400'
Keino ran both the 10,000 and 5,000 before the 1500, making his performance even more legendary.
DNF'd in the 10,000 due with an infection in his gall bladder IIRC and took Silver at 5000m which for whatever reason always gets pushed to the background of his career.
Quite an achievement.
In my oopinion, it was a number of years before an intrinsically superior mile/1500 was run. It had to be worth at least a 3:31. Remember, however, that these were not mere mortals. The effects on them was not so large as you might expect because the conversions I have heard place the 800 as a "wash" between the lower wind resistence and the lower partial pressure of O2.
His 3:34 would have been a world record for a long time. if it was converted down. According to altitude adjustments NAU is somewhere just above 7,000 feet? There in the 1500 you get about 7-8 seconds converted down. So 3:34 converted down is a 3:26-27, making Keino a World record holder for about 25 years. Ryan's time a 3:30 or so is another amazing accomplishment. (I'm not sure about the exact number in converting down, Go to Big Sky Conference site and look at the conversions for Flagstaff)
26mi235 wrote:
In my oopinion, it was a number of years before an intrinsically superior mile/1500 was run..
I think you should learn the meaning of "instrinsic" before you post.
God do I hate when people claim that older times are "worth" more these days, as if the stopwatch somehow slows down as the years go by. This statement is as stupid as when race directors age grade races to see who is "truly" the fastest.
I suppose if I ran a 5:10 mile in say, the year 400 B.C., that would have to be worth at least, what? 3:14 for 1500m today?
but what's at question here is not when Keino ran 3:34.9, but the fact that he ran it at 7500ft in Mexico City.
There's no question that Keino ran 3:34.9 at Mexico City, so what's your point?
Vipamator wrote:
Ciudad de México wrote:Times run at Nairobi el 5500' compared with Keino's run at Mexico City el 7400'
Keino ran both the 10,000 and 5,000 before the 1500, making his performance even more legendary.
DNF'd in the 10,000 due with an infection in his gall bladder IIRC and took Silver at 5000m which for whatever reason always gets pushed to the background of his career.
Quite an achievement.
In actual fact, Keino got beaten in the 5000 by a sea level born athlete - Gammoudi, a Tunisian.
Instead of using his altitude born advantage and pushing the pace, Keino arrogantly thought he could out-kick Gammoudi on a last lap sprint.
He obviously didn’t know much about the underrated Gammoudi.
Keino learnt that lesson and made sure that situation never happened in the 1500.
1. Kip KEINO (KEN) 3:34.9 OR
2. Jim RYUN (USA) 3:37.8
Keino: greatest race I've ever seen a man run. Remember, he'd never beaten Ryun. He had a plan to win and then went out on the biggest stage in athletics and pulled it off.
Ryun: guttiest performance I've seen. To come back from mono and then go to the 7000+ altitude of Mexico City and get silver took tremendous determination. I can't even imagine the pain of that effort.
Oct 13 -- 10k Temu 1st 29:27.4 Keino DNF
Oct 15 -- 5k Heats 1st Keino(14:28.8) 2nd Gammoudi (14:29.0)
Oct 17 -- 5k final 1st Gammoudi (14:05.0) 2nd Keino (14:05.2)
Oct 18 -- 1500 heats 1st Keino 3:46.9 (3:04 at 1200)
1st Ryun 3:45.7 (3:04 at 1200)
Oct 19 -- 1500 semi 1st Ryun 3:51.2 (3:13 at 1200)
same semi 2nd Keino 3:51.4 (3:11.8 at 1200)
Oct 20 -- 1500 final 1st Keino 3:34.9
2nd Ryun 3:37.8
3rd Tummler 3:39.0
4th Norpoth 3:42.5
he should have been able to outkick Gammoudi, he was a 3:34.9 1500 runner at altitude. If i was a person who could run a 3:50 mile i would sit and kick as well....see Dieter Bauman
Ben Jipchoo (sp?) did not run 2 Olympic 1500 finals that day; he ran one and Keino ran one. Ryun and all the others were free to use the rabbiting help and self destruct or lay off the pace and run within themselves. I think it's ridiculous when countries are accused of team tactics, unless they intentionally trip or box the other competitors. Pacing is not a team tactic, it's a sacrifice to a teamate's strategy and available for everyone's benefit. Jipchoo should be praised for keeping that race honest.
Take Abdelkader Hachlaf, El G's personal rabbit for a few years. Anyone else in those fields was welcome to use Hachlaf as much as El G.
Check this out....
I thought East Africans didn't exist before 1990?
party line wrote:
I thought East Africans didn't exist before 1990?
Who ever said THAT?? People only say that they they did not have a full-scale program of athletics and full squads of distance runners until the late 80's. In the 60's and 70's and early 80's they just had a few here and there, but man.....those handful were they brilliant ( Keino, Bikila, Yifter and many more). The East Africans have ALWAYS been brilliant, but now they just have many more runners competing, and even have women squads dominating.