The jewelry rules, the uniform rules for a start. Utter trash.
Here in CT a pominent team was disqualifed from the state indoor meet because their shorts weren't identical. Now wait before you protest.... Here's the deal... they were all plain red, but 3 were Nike and one was asics. Spirit of the rule????
If a relay team was DQ'ed because of the logos, then a mistake was made.
From the NFHS Casebook (p.31)
Rule 4.3.2
Team A decides to replace uniforms during the season. When the relay team checks in, the clerk notices three runners have three different logos on their shorts, while a fourth runner has no visible logo. All shorts are the same color and style, yet none are identical because of the variance in logos. The official shall:
(a) instruct all members of the relay team to roll up the leg of the shorts to hide the logo,
(b) instruct only the three with different logos to hide the logo,
(c) disqualify the relay team for having different uniforms,
(d) ignore the differences since none of the logos exceed the size limit.
RULING: (a), (b), and (c) incorrect procedure. (d) Correct procedure.
COMMENT: Having different legal logos (or lack of a logo) is not a violation.
I agree with you that uniform rules have gotten out of control. I officiate high school meets and, unless their is a gross violation, I do not disqualify the athlete. I inform the athlete and the coach that he/she is in an illegal uniform and that at the regional/state meets a DQ will result. I will only DQ an athlete at a dual meet if the opposing coach points out the violation to me. If the opposing coach doesn't care or doesn't even know the rule, why should I DQ the runner? High school sports are about paricipation and if all you do is DQ people and prevent them from racing the athletes will lose interest in the sport and play baseball or soccer instead.
By the way, in championship meets, I WILL disqualify an athlete but will always try to give him/her a chance to rectify the situation before a DQ results.
there is also a rule forcing runners to wear shoes. they need to get rid of that. i feel that my complaining on letsrun.com will eventually lead to the removal of this rule.
The problem in CT, and it happened to a few teams, was that the kids bought their own shorts. In this case they were told to get solid red with a 4" inseam. The officials said they weren't "school issued" protest denied.
Is this the place to get the rules changed? No, of course not, but it is as good a place as any to have a discussion with hs coaches, officials and administrators from around the country.
DQ was improper wrote:
If the opposing coach doesn't care or doesn't even know the rule, why should I DQ the runner?....By the way, in championship meets, I WILL disqualify an athlete but will always try to give him/her a chance to rectify the situation before a DQ results.
If a thrower tosses a shot/discus/javelin out of the sector, will you call a foul if the opposing coach does not say something? If a runner impedes another runner, will you call a foul if the opposing coach remains mum? It sounds like you have arbitrarily decided to enforce some rules, but not others. Similarly, it appears you think certain rules apply only to certain meets. With all due respect, this makes you a poor choice for an official.
I am not trying to offer any validation for these rules. I am suggesting that an official should strictly adhere to the rule book at all times, not just when he/she finds it convenient.
Shape up or turn in your whistle.
ray wrote:
The jewelry rules, the uniform rules for a start. Utter trash.
Here in CT a pominent team was disqualifed from the state indoor meet because their shorts weren't identical. Now wait before you protest.... Here's the deal... they were all plain red, but 3 were Nike and one was asics. Spirit of the rule????
So you want to throw out the baby with the bath water? Most of the rule book is thoughtful and relevant. There's no need to burn the thing. Instead, try reading the section about how to suggest rule modifications and then follow through with that. Maybe you'll get lucky.
ray wrote:
Is this the place to get the rules changed? No, of course not, but it is as good a place as any to have a discussion with hs coaches, officials and administrators from around the country.
No it's not. See The Mann's reply.
Rules rule wrote:
DQ was improper wrote:If the opposing coach doesn't care or doesn't even know the rule, why should I DQ the runner?....By the way, in championship meets, I WILL disqualify an athlete but will always try to give him/her a chance to rectify the situation before a DQ results.
If a thrower tosses a shot/discus/javelin out of the sector, will you call a foul if the opposing coach does not say something? If a runner impedes another runner, will you call a foul if the opposing coach remains mum? It sounds like you have arbitrarily decided to enforce some rules, but not others. Similarly, it appears you think certain rules apply only to certain meets. With all due respect, this makes you a poor choice for an official.
I am not trying to offer any validation for these rules. I am suggesting that an official should strictly adhere to the rule book at all times, not just when he/she finds it convenient.
Shape up or turn in your whistle.
I completely disagree, and your examples are not analagous. There are officials out there (I see them even in the college ranks) who enjoy their reputation as sticklers for the uniform rules. The uniform rules exist to keep kids from wearing tie-died shorts, or from running naked. A seasoned official should not be in the business of DQ'ing kids for microscopic violations that DO NOT VIOLATE THE SPIRIT OF THE RULE OR EFFECT THE OUTCOME. That is the key. Throwing outside the sector effects the outcome. A kid racing in team-colored shorts he bought himself does not. Nor does wearing a St. Christopher medal. An official should know the difference and be very slow to make calls based on cosmetic issues.
I had a HS teammate once who had stomach flu and literally shat in his shorts in the 400. Some jackass official almost DQ'd him for wearing non-team issued shorts (same color but with stripes) in the 4 x 400. Only the intervention of the host school's coach kept him from the DQ.
And any coach who files a protest on such "violations" is a pathetic loser and should be horsewhipped. Who wants to win a meet because an opponent didn't tuck in his shirt?
Space Ghost wrote:The uniform rules exist to keep kids from wearing tie-died shorts, or from running naked.
Okay, I can see the tie-died thing but what's wrong with running naked? If everyone on a team does that, do they violate the uniform rule?
Space Ghost wrote:
Throwing outside the sector effects the outcome.
How? I understand that it is a violation of the rules, but why should these throws be discounted just because they fall outside of some arbitrary lines?
If the uniform rule deserves some leeway in interpretation, shouldn't this rule (and others) too?
wondering wrote:
Space Ghost wrote:Throwing outside the sector effects the outcome.
How? I understand that it is a violation of the rules, but why should these throws be discounted just because they fall outside of some arbitrary lines?
If the uniform rule deserves some leeway in interpretation, shouldn't this rule (and others) too?
wondering, let's get real here ! I suppose a baseball hit 2 inches outside the foul line should not be called a foul ball ??!! Or a football or basketball guy stepping on the line ?!
addendum to above.... wondering, I see now that you were just trying to make a point, nothing more. No criticism was needed, sorry.
Rules rule wrote:
If a thrower tosses a shot/discus/javelin out of the sector, will you call a foul if the opposing coach does not say something? If a runner impedes another runner, will you call a foul if the opposing coach remains mum? It sounds like you have arbitrarily decided to enforce some rules, but not others. Similarly, it appears you think certain rules apply only to certain meets. With all due respect, this makes you a poor choice for an official.
I am not trying to offer any validation for these rules. I am suggesting that an official should strictly adhere to the rule book at all times, not just when he/she finds it convenient.
Shape up or turn in your whistle.
There is a major difference between an implement landing outside the sector lines and a uniform violation. There is no comparison. Someone else already addressed this above so I will not bother addressing it now.
Yes, in dual meets I do arbitrarily enforce rules - but ONLY uniform rules. I enforce all others, even those I an opposed to (like the no false start rule). Track and field at the high school level is a learning experience. These are not professional athletes; they are simply a bunch of teenagers who want to compete and have fun. I use dual meets as a chance to teach the athletes, and in some cases the coaches, the rules. I ALWAYS point out even a minor uniform violation to the athlete and coach so that hopefully they will not make the same mistake in a championship meet.
People are always complaining on this board about how the state of high school track and field "sucks." How is disqualifying athletes for trivial uniform violations going to help the sport? I can see a couple HS kids sitting at the lunch table:
Kid #1: "I think I'm going to go out for track this Spring."
Kid #2: "No, man, you don't want to do that. I got DQ'ed from a meet last year just because I had a stripe on the tights I wore under my uniform. That stupid rule prevented me from running in the conference meet last year. I could have won!"
Kid #1: "Are you serious? That's dumb. I guess I'll play baseball instead."
And with that, we just lost another potential track athlete. The idea is to try NOT to disqualify athletes if at all possible. Even in a championship meet an official should try to point out all violations prior to the race so that the athlete can make the necessary changes to avoid a DQ. If you are "out to get" the runners then you should not be involved in officiating meets, especially at the high school level. We should all try to do our part to make HS track be a positive experience for the athletes so that they remain in the sport, not just in HS, but years afterward. Today's athletes are tomorrow's coaches and officials. But if they have a poor experience in HS, you can forget about them ever getting involved in the sport as an adult.
wondering wrote:
How? I understand that it is a violation of the rules, but why should these throws be discounted just because they fall outside of some arbitrary lines?
If the uniform rule deserves some leeway in interpretation, shouldn't this rule (and others) too?
It seems to me you're being deliberately obtuse. The answer to your question is "no, rules that establish FAIR COMPETITION get no leeway (for obvious reasons); rules that are cosmetic in nature and deal only with the appearance of the athlete do get leeway." Athlete wearing hat, OK. Relay team in same colors but different brands, OK. Athlete wearing other team's colors, DQ. Naked athlete, DQ.
Even the fascistic NFL, the "No Fun League," relies on fines to discipline a player who dares to wear the wrong socks in a game. They don't make the offending team forfeit the game, because the socks did not effect the outcome.
DQ was improper wrote:
I can see a couple HS kids sitting at the lunch table:
Kid #1: "I think I'm going to go out for track this Spring."
Kid #2: "No, man, you don't want to do that. I got DQ'ed from a meet last year just because I had a stripe on the tights I wore under my uniform. That stupid rule prevented me from running in the conference meet last year. I could have won!"
Kid #1: "Are you serious? That's dumb. I guess I'll play baseball instead."
And with that, we just lost another potential track athlete.
You have quite an imagination. Give me a break! Your scenario is close to 100% unlikely. This is no more likely to happen for track than it will for baseball.
Unfortunately there are coaches who will do whatever it takes to win a meet. I was running a high jump competition once and the clear and obvious winner happened to be wearing a thin gold chain that I didn't even see. An opposing coach, gleefully, insisted I DQ the athlete and make her jumper, who went like four inches lower, the winner. It had to go up to the meet director, who asked the coach, in essence, if she really wanted to be this big an ass, and she said yes, then pulled out the lame ass "what if someone threw a shot two inches outside the line, do we overlook that? Rules are rules ..." The director later told me that she eventually told him it was 10 points for the other team and it was a close meet and she'd take it to the state athletics board blah blah blah. Thing is, I could tell her jumper felt bad about "winning" that way.
Do all high school federations follow all the national rules?
DQ was improper wrote:
There is a major difference between an implement landing outside the sector lines and a uniform violation. There is no comparison.
I did not realize t&f officials had the prerogative of deciding which rules to enforce and which to ignore. Live and learn.
Snyde Clyde wrote:
I did not realize t&f officials had the prerogative of deciding which rules to enforce and which to ignore. Live and learn.
You are the problem. Say no to common sense and fair play. Say yes to being a pain-in-the-ass with a rulebook.
[/quote]I did not realize t&f officials had the prerogative of deciding which rules to enforce and which to ignore. Live and learn.[/quote]
And I did not realize that so many people are devoid of common sense.
Question: what are the uniform rules for football? Basketball? Can you wear jewelry in wrestling?