If that was supposed to be race pace, it was really fast. If it was supposed to be more in line with CV, then 1 min is about right.
I think you're in way better shape than 9:38. My kids that have been there would have struggled with or not been able to complete that session. A couple of years ago, I had a 4:32/9:50 guy. A very common workout was 6-7 x 3 min with 1 min jog recovery. We did these on the track and he was running consistently around 870 meters (which means he was coming through the 800 in around 2:45.
If you're only running 9:40 in races, you're leaving your best performances in workouts.
If that was supposed to be race pace, it was really fast. If it was supposed to be more in line with CV, then 1 min is about right.
I think you're in way better shape than 9:38. My kids that have been there would have struggled with or not been able to complete that session. A couple of years ago, I had a 4:32/9:50 guy. A very common workout was 6-7 x 3 min with 1 min jog recovery. We did these on the track and he was running consistently around 870 meters (which means he was coming through the 800 in around 2:45.
If you're only running 9:40 in races, you're leaving your best performances in workouts.
It was supposed to be race pace, but not knowing what race pace was at the time, so a kind of final race predictor confidence workout 2 weeks out before peak 3200m race. I definitely went to the well since I was pushing and then wasn't able to check pace and unconsciously ran a 2:28 so it must've been hard. But also, prom was yesterday so post-afterparty off of very little sleep and maybe a bit sick scratchy throat (breathing didn't feel affected though).
I figured it was the right thing to do because all I know right now is way back for the first race of the season, I ran a 2:05 800m splitting 63-62, then a few weeks later ran a 9:53 for 3200m playing tactics through 2400m and taking the lead and closing in 2:21 for 800, then throughout the season put together a string of 2:06 and 4:38/4:37 races under pretty intense training load.
Recently last week, 3 days after running 8x400 with 2min recovery in 66.9, 64.8, 64.5, 63.0, 64.9, 65.5, 65.1, 63.1, I finally broke through a bit and ran 4:32 at the final league meet of the season.
But now it's postseason and I'm starting to tune up on my main event. I think it's pretty clear I'm more strength oriented from my workouts, being able to run off of short rest pretty well and the relatively slow 800m race efforts. (But also maybe cause I just never tapered for an 800 after the first one).
I've also done 6x800 with also 2 minute recovery too, about exactly a week before my 4:32 mile breakthrough, going 2:28, 2:25, 2:22, 2:22, 2:20, 2:18. It felt way easier with the long recovery so the reps were a lot more quality, but I really doubt it's my 3200m pace. Probably like 2-3s faster per rep.
It could really be the case that I'm leaving my best performances in my workouts. How should I go about tapering while staying sharp these final 2 weeks?
It could really be the case that I'm leaving my best performances in my workouts. How should I go about tapering while staying sharp these final 2 weeks?
I've felt that the best way to stay sharp and taper is to
1) cut back the volume of hard work. If you're doing 6 x 800 now, drop it to 4 (for example).
2) Keep the overall mileage close to what it's been, it can drop a bit, but peaks are hard to hold if the volume drops too much
3) I'm a huge fan of "mini workouts". So, we might replace a 6-7 mile easy run with a 4 mile easy run + 4 x 200 at about mile pace with full recovery. The extra intensity helps elevate testosterone and growth hormone levels, but if you do a small amount, it's not enough to tire you out.
4) in that 2 week period, you probably need 1 session of tempo stuff in order to maintain that aspect of your training. It can be easier. If you've been doing 4 mile tempo runs, maybe you do a 3 mile or break it into intervals of 4 x 1 mile with 1 min recovery (don't increase the pace though, you're trying to freshen up)
I'm sure your coach knows this stuff, so discus the tapering plan with him/her. You're super fit. I think you should be able to go well under 9:30 with good pacing
I've felt that the best way to stay sharp and taper is to
1) cut back the volume of hard work. If you're doing 6 x 800 now, drop it to 4 (for example).
2) Keep the overall mileage close to what it's been, it can drop a bit, but peaks are hard to hold if the volume drops too much
3) I'm a huge fan of "mini workouts". So, we might replace a 6-7 mile easy run with a 4 mile easy run + 4 x 200 at about mile pace with full recovery. The extra intensity helps elevate testosterone and growth hormone levels, but if you do a small amount, it's not enough to tire you out.
4) in that 2 week period, you probably need 1 session of tempo stuff in order to maintain that aspect of your training. It can be easier. If you've been doing 4 mile tempo runs, maybe you do a 3 mile or break it into intervals of 4 x 1 mile with 1 min recovery (don't increase the pace though, you're trying to freshen up)
I'm sure your coach knows this stuff, so discus the tapering plan with him/her. You're super fit. I think you should be able to go well under 9:30 with good pacing
9:30 would be pretty insane. It was my life goal during sophomore year to try to crack 5:30 in the mile, ending the season on 5:49... Coming into this senior season off of cross country, I felt confident and fit and made sub 9:30 my goal, but 3 months of sedentary college applications november-january and it was slipping out of my hands the entire season. Started late, early season time trials matched my early season cross country fitness (so I basically lost my gains) but recently finally feel like I've built back and improved a bunch. I'm still hesitant to call it my goal once again though. I'm going to run for a sub 4:30 in my final 1600m race of my high school career at conference finals this Friday, and easily qualify for the 3200m regionals with hopefully just a PR, to peak during regionals and try to run sub 9:40 (it has historically always been very hot). If I qualify for sectionals I get one last shot and it's going to be at night on a fast track in great conditions with great competition. If everything goes right, I might try for the 9:30 there.
My schedule now though is pretty much planned as is:
Sunday - This 6x800 1:00 rest workout
Monday - 5.6 miles easy 7:25 pace today
Tuesday - unplanned, but probably just easy and strides
Wednesday - obligatory 4x8 run for conference points, anything under 2:10 would be good by coach, but might be good tuneup to go all out?
Thursday - recovery day, strides. Any best practice to be unaffected by Wednesday 800 by Friday?
Friday - 1600m for sub 4:30 PR, 3200m for easy qual (sub 10)
Sat to Fri next week - unplanned... final shorter long recovery sprint tuneup workout? Or keep doing stuff I've been doing but cutting volume and try the mini workout idea.
Saturday - All in on 3200m in hotter weather. Top 6 qualify, time to get will likely be ~9:40.
Sun to Fri - unplanned again but probably similar to try to hold peak for one more week.
Saturday - Sectionals, the most competitive race I have a shot of getting to, top 3 to states but yk that's like sub 9:10 material. Great conditions and I'll try to get a big PR here if I can even make it, which would already be crazy.
Thanks a lot. All of your advice sounds good. My coach pretty much agrees, but he has always been super freeform on what I do and has generally left it up to me to pick what I feel I need to work on, so he doesn't have any set schedule for me in the final days. I kinda spend a bunch of time browsing the internet and training methodologies to mix together stuff and I think it's cool doing something that I know the purpose of and have planned out myself.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Leaving the workout aside, if you've already run a 4:32 1600m and think a sub-4:30 might be in the cards, for a strength-based runner that indicates sub-9:30 fitness. And I agree that the average pace of that 6 x 800 workout is definitely slower than 3200m race pace, as it had very short recovery.
I agree with others--do less volume at the same pace for your workouts during the taper, don't neglect strength work, and if it makes you feel good do some snappy "fast-finish" stuff or mini-workouts (ie, 4 x 200 @ 800m pace) with at least easy walk/jog back recovery.
I think if you give yourself a couple bites at the apple you could sun solidly in the 9:20s.
It's been a while, I ran 4:33/10:02 double at conference to qualify for regionals (was trying for sub 4:30 but it was a tactical mile with no one else trying to PR so middle laps were slow - it went 64, 70, 71, 68) and then raced a 9:50 at regionals in hot weather (83F, idk if that counts as hot) to qualify for sectionals which is my final planned race of the season (states will take a sub 9:10 lmao).
The times have been a bit disappointing but I got sick a bit shortly after doing that workout and am just now recovering. My 9:50 splits were: 1:12, 1:12, 1:12, 1:13, 1:15, 1:16, 1:16, 1:14
I was competing with a pack of people planning to try to break 9:40, and came through the mile spot on pace feeling good, but the pack started to slow as it got harder and maybe it was the heat kicking in, started trading spots with people in the back and tried to push on the 7th lap and couldn't hold on for the last lap (placed last in the qualifying pack as others closed in ~1:10 for 9:45s)
I think there might be something with my race tactics and how I like to maneuver and surge a bit which is very draining and oftentimes leaves me without a kick at the end. And also, when I do decide to tuck in, sometimes my step gets checked by the people in front and I have to forcibly slow for a step or two which is annoying. Does anyone have any tips for my final race next week?
It will be at a fast track in cold weather great conditions at 830pm, with lots of competition right in my goal pace range, so truly nothing to complain about there. I'm going to try to run 1:12s for 9:36 and kick again but I'm thinking I have to do better in how I race in a pack.
Do I need to leave a tad more room in front of me so that natural pace deviations don't trip me up? How do I know when to settle vs when to surge and pass? Is there a better line to run in, like lane 2 straights and tuck in curves?
And when should I make my move? Generally as a long drive kicker should it be with 500m to go? Final lap kick? I tend to move on the home straight with like 900m to go and try to form a gap on lap 7 but it doesn't always work out well and like in this case the other people just hang and I blow up afterwards and can't match the kick in the final lap.
Any experience or tips for 3200 tactics will be helpful. And final advice for this upcoming week would be good too. I wish I had stronger legs/speed to deal with the fatigue better but not having any weight training program is likely holding me back now. But any way to sharpen leg strength in a final week and rest up best possible would be helpful.
It's been a while, I ran 4:33/10:02 double at conference to qualify for regionals (was trying for sub 4:30 but it was a tactical mile with no one else trying to PR so middle laps were slow - it went 64, 70, 71, 68) and then raced a 9:50 at regionals in hot weather (83F, idk if that counts as hot) to qualify for sectionals which is my final planned race of the season (states will take a sub 9:10 lmao).
The times have been a bit disappointing but I got sick a bit shortly after doing that workout and am just now recovering. My 9:50 splits were: 1:12, 1:12, 1:12, 1:13, 1:15, 1:16, 1:16, 1:14
I was competing with a pack of people planning to try to break 9:40, and came through the mile spot on pace feeling good, but the pack started to slow as it got harder and maybe it was the heat kicking in, started trading spots with people in the back and tried to push on the 7th lap and couldn't hold on for the last lap (placed last in the qualifying pack as others closed in ~1:10 for 9:45s)
I think there might be something with my race tactics and how I like to maneuver and surge a bit which is very draining and oftentimes leaves me without a kick at the end. And also, when I do decide to tuck in, sometimes my step gets checked by the people in front and I have to forcibly slow for a step or two which is annoying. Does anyone have any tips for my final race next week?
It will be at a fast track in cold weather great conditions at 830pm, with lots of competition right in my goal pace range, so truly nothing to complain about there. I'm going to try to run 1:12s for 9:36 and kick again but I'm thinking I have to do better in how I race in a pack.
Do I need to leave a tad more room in front of me so that natural pace deviations don't trip me up? How do I know when to settle vs when to surge and pass? Is there a better line to run in, like lane 2 straights and tuck in curves?
And when should I make my move? Generally as a long drive kicker should it be with 500m to go? Final lap kick? I tend to move on the home straight with like 900m to go and try to form a gap on lap 7 but it doesn't always work out well and like in this case the other people just hang and I blow up afterwards and can't match the kick in the final lap.
Any experience or tips for 3200 tactics will be helpful. And final advice for this upcoming week would be good too. I wish I had stronger legs/speed to deal with the fatigue better but not having any weight training program is likely holding me back now. But any way to sharpen leg strength in a final week and rest up best possible would be helpful.
Thanks!
You definitely have way more ability than is apparent from your races.
My times were 1:57.5, 4:21, 8:45 for 800m, mile and 3000m (probably about 9:20 for 2 miles). I would have been working hard to run your 8x400m session. I can recall doing 6x800m in about 2:20-21, but more of 90 seconds to 2 minutes recover, so similar to your session.
The big difference to me is closing speed. I ran 2:06 for the last 800m of the 3000m and 60 sec for the last lap of the mile.
I think you have every bit, if not more, ability than I had judging by your workouts. A couple of possibilities:-
You are leaving your races on the track, and should dial the sessions back to the paces you are actually running, not that you hope to run.
Your 800m time is slow compared to the potential times you seem capable of at a mile and 3000m, and it appears that you lack anaerobic power. I'd consider a six week period of hill sprints at some point in your training cycle. I'd also look at some fast relaxed 200m reps with a good recovery, and also doing sessions where you accelerate of a steady pace.
I would also look at getting that 800m time down. You need to be able to do something like 8x200m in about 30 sec. with 200m jog, and 4x400m in 60 sec. (I took 800m jog between those).
Racing-wise, a lot is just experience. In the 3000m at least, I would look at just running your own pace and not responding to surges.
I'd be interested in what you could do for 5000m (track not x-country) as you seem to be more a strength runner. Perhaps you could try some 5k road-races locally this summer.
I would say off your training, you have a lot of potential.
Your 800m time is slow compared to the potential times you seem capable of at a mile and 3000m, and it appears that you lack anaerobic power. I'd consider a six week period of hill sprints at some point in your training cycle. I'd also look at some fast relaxed 200m reps with a good recovery, and also doing sessions where you accelerate of a steady pace.
I would also look at getting that 800m time down. You need to be able to do something like 8x200m in about 30 sec. with 200m jog, and 4x400m in 60 sec. (I took 800m jog between those).
Racing-wise, a lot is just experience. In the 3000m at least, I would look at just running your own pace and not responding to surges.
I'd be interested in what you could do for 5000m (track not x-country) as you seem to be more a strength runner. Perhaps you could try some 5k road-races locally this summer.
I would say off your training, you have a lot of potential.
Thanks, I just about figured that it's my anaerobic strength lacking since I've not really trained in sprints or strength, and I've mostly just built it up with routine strides over these 2 years. And I do feel aerobically strong generally and the burn that starts to slow me down during races is all in my legs.
It's good to hear someone say I have potential, I've started to doubt a bit after starting running late and improving quickly at during my first year but starting to hit a kind of wall this year.
But my season is just about over. So I'll definitely go figure out strength and sprints next year, although I'm not sure about if I'm going to be able to continue to run in college at this point. Not sure if I can justify running if I'm not able to walk onto the team, and at this rate without going solidly 9:40 it's probably not happening. But thanks for the advice and experiences.
P.S. closing in faster than mile pace an 800 for a 3k is CRAZY, you can definitely go quicker in either event. Or is that just how a 3k should be paced..? I did have success in going 'too easy' first 6 laps and then having a really good 800 kick, but that was earlier season.
Your 800m time is slow compared to the potential times you seem capable of at a mile and 3000m, and it appears that you lack anaerobic power. I'd consider a six week period of hill sprints at some point in your training cycle. I'd also look at some fast relaxed 200m reps with a good recovery, and also doing sessions where you accelerate of a steady pace.
I would also look at getting that 800m time down. You need to be able to do something like 8x200m in about 30 sec. with 200m jog, and 4x400m in 60 sec. (I took 800m jog between those).
Racing-wise, a lot is just experience. In the 3000m at least, I would look at just running your own pace and not responding to surges.
I'd be interested in what you could do for 5000m (track not x-country) as you seem to be more a strength runner. Perhaps you could try some 5k road-races locally this summer.
I would say off your training, you have a lot of potential.
Thanks, I just about figured that it's my anaerobic strength lacking since I've not really trained in sprints or strength, and I've mostly just built it up with routine strides over these 2 years. And I do feel aerobically strong generally and the burn that starts to slow me down during races is all in my legs.
It's good to hear someone say I have potential, I've started to doubt a bit after starting running late and improving quickly at during my first year but starting to hit a kind of wall this year.
But my season is just about over. So I'll definitely go figure out strength and sprints next year, although I'm not sure about if I'm going to be able to continue to run in college at this point. Not sure if I can justify running if I'm not able to walk onto the team, and at this rate without going solidly 9:40 it's probably not happening. But thanks for the advice and experiences.
P.S. closing in faster than mile pace an 800 for a 3k is CRAZY, you can definitely go quicker in either event. Or is that just how a 3k should be paced..? I did have success in going 'too easy' first 6 laps and then having a really good 800 kick, but that was earlier season.
I think I was somewhat underdeveloped aerobically. This was about 40 years ago when lower mileage, high-intensity was often the way we went.
I found that the best way for me was to cruise and then really push the last quarter and if I had done more more mileage at a slower pace and more threshold work, I could have run faster times.
I hope you do get the opportunity to compete in college, your training indicates near 4:20 mile and well under 9:30 two miles. I'd also be amazed if you didn't run a very solid 5000m/5k if you had a shot...If you don't get a chance to compete in college, but stayed in shape, I think you'd have a lot of fun afterwards as a top local road runner in 5k and 10k events.