800m HS - Can't Kick No Matter What

Speed endurance.

Look up Joe Vigil/Peter Coe "acceleration workouts.

They are a bit complicated to set up but extremely good at developing the crucial element for finishing strong.

Basically the first workout involves running repeats of 100m, 110, 120, 130... etc...to 200m with paces starting at mile PR and finishing at 400 PR paces. Using walk back rests. The complicated part is figuring out each split from 100m at mile pace to 200 at 400 pace (11 repeats each increasing distance by 10m and pace increases incrementally) a very brutal workout by the end but incredible for producing speed endurance.

The second workout follows basically the same principle but starts at 200m at mile pace and finishes at 300m at 400 pace with 20m added each rep for a total of six repeats. Just as brutal.

These are ideally done about 10 days apart starting about a month out from goal peak race so right now for you.

This was a key workout for Seb Coe

Look up Vigil's layout of the workout for specifics.

Learn to use your arms properly. Hill repeats are the best place to start, preferably under the helpful eye of a good sprint coach.

We will assume you are male. No U.S. high school females are racing 800m, 1:54.xx.

* How many reps, 225 lbs. squats? All the way down. My T&F bro-science brain tells me 1/4 squats & 1/2 squats lead to muscle imbalances, quads too strong for biceps femoris.

* For a 1:43.xx 800m man, Timothy Cheruiyot, even at his peak was lacking final 50m. Sprinting form.

* 200m p.b? 400m p.b?

You don't say?

If you can’t do it in practice you can’t do it in a race. Aka you need to practice running hard when tired at the end of the workout and pace changes etc.

Well if you improve your 100m time, while maintaining your endurance level of course, you will be faster.

4 x 600

Moderately fast cruise 400 and kick hard the last 200

My hand timed 100m is 10.7 from some speed work, which could probably be around 10.9-11.1 in a true race out of blocks, so I feel that's not where I'm lacking as an 800 runner

My 200m pb is 22.8 and my open 400 is 49.8, both ran a year ago when I was much less fit and fast, I'm at a point now where I am doing mid 22s in speed work with lots of recovery, and I have split 47 in the 4x4, 2nd leg, for 3 meets in a row now. I also don't know about my squatting abilities in the way you are asking, but my max at the moment is 315lbs.

I hit my work outs quite hard, I'll give an example and I would like your opinion if this seems like I am pushing.

6x300, 4min standing rest

43,41,40,40,38,37

My coach has drilled arm form into me for a while now, so that is not the biggest issue at the finish, however my shoulders do tense up at the end of my races from looking at film. What happens if my stride length decreased dramatically, even though I am keeping around the same steps per minute that I have been holding the majority of the race.

This sort of seems like what my coach is beginning to phase me into. Up until 2 week ago, my workouts have been more endurance based with a CNS speed workout thrown in once every 1.5 week give or take. However now, my mileage has seemed to go down slightly from 28-35 to 20 and my workouts will start being more speed endurance; example, 8x200, 6x300, 6x200 faster, 3-5x400 at 800 RP

5x400 is great but talking about things like sets of 400 at 800 pace, 1min easy 200 faster. Intervals with pace changes so say your doing 300s, first 200 at race pace and hammering the last 100. Etc.

I think you are going out too slow most race.

Commit to leading through 600 and not waiting for the race to unfold

Suggest 7x 300 42 w 300 walk to feel out the rhythm best bet though is you need closer to 39/ 1:21 splits to feel this out , low key meets should turn into workouts

You need what Coe called ranging shots, 500-600 tests that give you what another dual meet 1:57 can’t

Good luck

some people are kickers - some people are not.

you are not

instead of trying to become what you are not, work on being the best at what you do best.

Push the pace - stretch the lead, so the kicker can't catch you. I am a kicker, to beat me all you have to do is get that gap and take me mentally out of the race. If you leave me in it, thinking I have a chance - you're beat. Cause you can't kick and I can.

in other words - never let it be a kickers race. You need to be out there pushing the pace (using your speed to win the race early - and then just hang on).

or making a big move in the middle part of the race to put the race away.

Embrace what you got = speed...not what you don't got.

I like this, I will attempt next week at my area meet. Thank you!

while giving your kick crap, you did notice you split 2s faster lap 2 the recent meet than on your PR?

you just gave away 5 seconds on the opening lap being what you call "tactical." you then got nicked by folks who probably couldn't do 1:51.

tactically, that tells you which strategy to pursue.

trainingwise, you are probably the rare kid on here who should work on endurance. you have the flat speed, you can run a pretty quick lap 1, what you need is lap 2 strength/endurance, where you can still run fast off a slow first lap, or hold off the competition. a lot of kick is an illusion, the ability to keep running at a clip when others blow up. negative splitting a 56 isn't horrific kick your age. you just left too many in the race to win the kick.

If you are a 47-1:51 guy it shows you have a bit of a gap in your endurance.

A 50-51 1:51 guy is going to be running the race a lot more like a distance event, it’s not that you aren’t kicking, it’s that your best race strategy with your current endurance setup is to go hard and hope no one can catch you, you probably feel comfortable opening in 25-26 while a more endurance based guy won’t be opening that fast as it’s his 400m pace or faster, but he also has the ability to hold on better than you do, even in a slower start race.

Look at the pro 400/800m guys, they don’t let an 800m be tactical cause they’d be screwed, so they go out super hard and try to string out the race so there’s too much ground to make up for the guys who have good endurance but worse speed.

It’s the same idea as why you don’t want to sit and kick in the 400m. Doesn’t matter if you close the final 100m in 12 seconds if the guy in front of you ran a second per 100m faster than you in the first 300m.

This one is pretty simple. Move up to the 1500 and make aggravate those guys when you blow by THEM in the last 50.