Jack Daniels 2nd Edition Pg. 213

I like that passage and the section that follows because Daniels is explaining how difficult it is to map out a one-size-fits-all system. He (later) says:

“Different individuals need different training programs. It’s silly to think that all milers should train the same because they’re training for the same distance.”

and

“I also suggest some logical order of training that suits most people, but the best mix of ingredients is an individual matter that can be identified and finalized only through many seasons of training.”

In other words, even if Daniels were your personal coach, he would not be able to answer your question definitively on day 1. He does, however, follow up with some sample training scheds. They incorporate 3 workouts every week, but you could start with just adding in one... then a second... then a third.

I've mentioned to you in the past that, as a beginner, anything you do is going to make you faster. Your 1500 will get faster from running 50 minute zone 2 runs. It will also get faster by doing "1500 training." You (anyone) is going to get faster by shedding unnecessary body mass (it's simple physics). I'll say again, specific plans are for runners with specific goals, runners who are looking to squeeze out the last little bit of toothpaste (if you read that whole Hadd training thread, you'll get the reference). I know you are in search of THE recipe for improvement, but I think you're already on track. You get out the door consistently and you really care. I wish you continued good luck! (PS: Coach Daniels used to post on LRC regularly... his name was dtupper or something like that...)

Sorry, I forgot to point out that "Phase I" on the sched that I mentioned above is 6 weeks (or longer!) of NO workouts. Just EASY (Zone 1-2) running, with some strides incorporated later. And it's jtupper... sorry 😅

Wow! Great quality post. Thank you.

Yep, I saw that :) thank you. I'm still torn whether I should do that, or start throwing in some mile races. I'm leaning towards doing a mile at race pace on Mon and Friday because that sounds like way more fun.

One more thing to consider:

You can run "mile pace" without running a whole mile at once. Let's say you think your best mile might be 6:00 (just cuz easy math).

You could start with 4 x 400 meters in 1:30, with 200 meter jog recovery. You would end up running "1 mile" at 6:00/mile, but it'll take you about 10 minutes and 2200 meters to do it, if that makes sense.

Then, next week only jog 100 meters. Again, you would end up running "1 mile" at 6:00/mile, but it'll take you about 8 minutes and 1900 meters to do it...

Then next week 2 x 800 at 3:00, with 200 meters...

So you are running "mile pace" from day one, but gradually building the duration of time that you need to hold it. Eventually you get to

1 x 1600 in 6:00

I generally put my slower runners/first year runners in my 800/mile group. They work on their speed a little more, focus on form more, workouts are shorter and paying attention to time on their feet. Like for tempos if we are doing 3-4mi tempo I’ll cut off the really slow kids at 20-25min range otherwise it would take them 30min or more etc. Also i think its good especially for slower runners to get in a cycle of training where they are training for the mile especially if their older. Kinda like how a marathon runner may have a 5k/10k training cycle after a marathon before training for the next.

Outside of XC season, I don't use continuous Tempo's, rather Cruise Intervals (Threshold segments). I find that less fit kids handle this better, but can still do some volume of work without it over-taxing them. Too many kids race their tempo runs (they are NOT time-trials), and the residual fatigue carries over to the rest of the week. When it is hot, it is also easier to have the breaks in between to hydrate (even if just a minute) and not overheat.

The basic idea is that you don’t think of your races in terms of distance covered and more of duration. Your cardiovascular and muscular systems get used to working at a certain intensity for 4 minutes, 8 minutes, 20 minutes at a time, for instance.

If you think this Daniels approach is interesting (I do too! I love it!), I think you’ll also enjoy some of these articles about 800-5000m training:

To all you new runners, I really recommend going by McMillan paces and not HR. I was running by HR and I’m 35, I never had my HR break 184 in the last year of training. Though, my race on last sunny Saturday my HR got to 193, this moves my HR from 134-153 to 144-162. Which is a drastic difference! I’ve been doing my runs all wrong and only hitting Z2 the last 10-20% of my run. No wonder I’ve not been sore or challenged. I had no idea my HR could get that high but the conditions were right, warm weather, caffeine, beet juice, etc. You should only run by HR if you are absolutely sure of your MAX HR and resting HR. I thought I was absolutely sure. Because I’ve done max HR tests before and couldn’t break 184. I guess the sun and caffeine plays a huge role. I am glad I have new training zones. My legs and core actually feel sore after these runs. So I am fairly positive 10:20/min/mi is correct and the 12:45/min/mi I was running at was absolutely incorrect. I won’t be using HR anymore. Seems so useless. I bet I could even get past 193 if I really pushed it. So HRR method is still useless to me. Glad I will be using pacing from here on out ;)

First, you were absolutely sure about using HR and now you are absolutely sure about not using HR. It might be the "absolutely" part that gonna keep tripping you up. When it comes to training, there are no absolutelys.

But I'll ask anyway: Are you absolutely sure that the 193 HR in your last race is the valid one, and all of the others from the past year were the anomalies? If that's the case, why not use 193 as your HRmax? (Just make sure you're not suffering from confirmation bias...)

As a side note, if "My legs and core actually feel sore after these runs" means after zone 2 runs, I don't think you're necessarily in a good place. Zone 2 is supposed to be easy.

You clearly want to discover the absolutely correct way to train even though everyone keeps telling you that there isn't one. I'm going to disagree that your previous training was "absolutely incorrect." Even if your HRmax is 10 beats higher, all of that previous running contributed to your fitness.

Have fun.

Your heart rate, and max hr can vary day to day. Your max was 193, during a race, when you were tapered and rested, and it was sunny. What if your max hr is 184 under normal training conditions. I do a session of very hard hill reps regularly, my max hr can vary quite a bit each time. Easy running is a large range, I wouldn’t fret over a few beats. Better to err on the low side.

This is pretty close to what we do. I try to think of each interval or tempo run from a time standpoint rather than a distance standpoint.

Let's say we are doing threshold. I'll assign 20-25 min @ 80% vVO2 (we use pace charts that I developed normalized to a 6 min vVo2 max test). My faster boys will hit over 4 miles in that 25 min while my slower girls might do barely over 2 miles for their 20 min. However, they're all getting a stimulus of 20-25 min at around threshold pace.

The same goes for intervals. If we're working what Daniels calls R pace, I'll try to make sure that the reps never go longer than 1:30. So, for my fast boys, this might mean they do up to 500m per rep. for the slower kids, this might mean we cap each rep at 300.

Yes, the HR reading is right. Actually the 5k was 26:20, the first mile my HR was 175, the second mile 185 avg, the third mile 183 avg, and the last .11 was 191 avg(193 max). I think its close to a LTHR test, just 3min and 40 seconds off, so I will use 184 as my LTHR. This gives me better paces to run by if I chose to run by HR. 147-166 is my zone 2. So yea, I think I will run by HR, but just use LTHR instead of HRR or maxHR calculations. HRR gets me close because my resting HR is like 73bpm(a bit high, some days its 65, other days its 78, so that one is a bit strange for me) - 144-163bpm for HRR, maxHR is even further off(134-153bpm). Also for me to run at 134-153bpm, I have to run 12:45min/miles or slower. All the pace calculators say I should be running 10:40~ for a 26:30~ 5k. I still am not confident my zone 2 is 147-166. I will use it for now, until I can get more serious do a proper LTHR test or pay for a LTHR lab test much later down the road. Just using my 5k race for now and averaging the last 20min of it. I tried to perform a LTHR 30min treadmill test, but I went out too fast at 7:40/mile and my HR was 180 by 14minutes in, which is lower than my 5k. I also wasn't on caffeine, beetjuice, low sleep, modafinil, hot weather etc like I was for the 5k. I think if I slowed down .2-.4mph I would have been fine.

I was wondering about this, like if during a normal training cycle I can't get my HR up that high, does that change my paces day-to-day?

Yea, I should train for the mile, but its so much more fun for me running 45-50min at a steady pace everyday than it is for 1-4min * 8 times or what ever the interval is.

"so I will use 184 as my LTHR."

OK... but please consider how to use that number.

Running at 5k race pace, it looks like you got your HR up to 184 in about 9 minutes, right? Running very hard, it takes that long!

Let's consider how long it would take to run at your Daniels VDOT 33 T pace (by your 5k time) 9:33 to get to 184bpm. Quite a while, right? Heart rate lags. That's not "wrong" (which you suggested in your original post because your HR only reached zone two for the last 20%.) That's how it is supposed to work. Imagine if you tried to do 20 minutes at Threshold with 80% of your time averaging 184 bpm: That's basically what you did in your 5k RACE! That's not Threshold training!

Given the numbers you listed in your post, your average HR for the whole 5k couldn't have been much higher than 187, right? (I think there should probably be more than 3bpm of separation between T and 5k race pace, but you seem determined.) So, at the very least... on your T training days, you shouldn't be coming near 184 till the end. You shouldn't be trying to average 184 for the T segment. You could/maybe/might be seeing 180-184 near the end. Have fun.

If all you have been doing is slow jogging, you will benefit immensely from any kind of workouts involving faster running. For anything faster than 5k pace, I would suggest being very mindful to ease into this type of training as it can put a lot of strain on your muscles and connective tissue when you're not used to it, and the risk of injury goes up. That being said, go ahead and follow one of the plans in DRF and see what happens. One threshold workout per week and one faster workout per week (strides or VO2 max type running) should help you improve your times dramatically compared to just straight easy running.

Good luck.

Haha. My bad. Should be VDOT 36 NOT 33! So T Pace 8:44, but it all still applies.

Thanks for your posts.