Like Grant Fishers 12:51 was impressive but thats a 1301 in 2012 (0.75 second per 400m is what these shoes add approx). Sick and tired of people thinking the 10th best 5k runner in the US is better than Galen Rupp when he was running American records without super shoes.
Maybe as a community we can start talking in Era adjusted timing so for example we would say Grant Fisher ran a 809 2 mile EAT (era adjusted time) just off of Galen Rupps american record of 8:07. So grant would have to run 8 flat with todays shoe technology to get the record.
Im just worried in the next few years that these guys are going to start breaking the records of El G and Komen and no one will understand those records are infinitely more impressive because they were set without super shoes.
This is the reality of any competitive institution. There is inflation due to tech, training methodologies and implementation, and as Malcolm gladwell puts it "accumulative advantage" on a higher quantity of individuals.
I'll compare it to chess, as I'm very familiar with the pro scene there. If Magnus Carlsen played Bobby fisher, Bobby has 0 chance of winning. And I mean absolutely 0 chance. Based on stockfish (chess super computer) magnus is the best player of all time by far. However, Bobby learned chess from books, playing games in NYC parks, and the newspaper reading notation. Magnus, with chess supercomputers, after every game could instantly analyze every move he made, why it was good or bad, see the next perfect 20 moves to understand why it was a good move AND had been doing this since he was a child. He also had the ability with the internet to play hundreds of games per day against top ranked grandmasters from all over the world.
Magnus IS better at chess. Just like Hobbs Kessler IS better than Jim Ryun.
Now, if you want to make the claim that one is more impressive than the other, I'm all ears. And that's the conversation that needs to be had, but you can't disregard what grant or any of these other athletes are doing.
What kind of reality are you living in that you have to change the numbers that were recorded? Is the ghost of Hugo Chavez changing the BU results page like he was manipulating Dominion voting machines?
Trying to erase 2 of the top 5 indoor 5ks of all time just cause they're recent is pretty unpatriotic. Trump would never and thats why I would never vote nikki haley. Planning in to write in President Trump for my vote in November.
This is the reality of any competitive institution. There is inflation due to tech, training methodologies and implementation, and as Malcolm gladwell puts it "accumulative advantage" on a higher quantity of individuals.
I'll compare it to chess, as I'm very familiar with the pro scene there. If Magnus Carlsen played Bobby fisher, Bobby has 0 chance of winning. And I mean absolutely 0 chance. Based on stockfish (chess super computer) magnus is the best player of all time by far. However, Bobby learned chess from books, playing games in NYC parks, and the newspaper reading notation. Magnus, with chess supercomputers, after every game could instantly analyze every move he made, why it was good or bad, see the next perfect 20 moves to understand why it was a good move AND had been doing this since he was a child. He also had the ability with the internet to play hundreds of games per day against top ranked grandmasters from all over the world.
Magnus IS better at chess. Just like Hobbs Kessler IS better than Jim Ryun.
Now, if you want to make the claim that one is more impressive than the other, I'm all ears. And that's the conversation that needs to be had, but you can't disregard what grant or any of these other athletes are doing.
This is interesting. Who is more legendary Kasparov or Carlsen? That’s kind of the crux of it. Carlsen might be better but who is more legendary? That’s the question with today’s times. They are faster, but are they more legendary? I’d say not.
Maybe as a community we can start talking in Era adjusted timing so for example we would say Grant Fisher ran a 809 2 mile EAT (era adjusted time) just off of Galen Rupps american record of 8:07. So grant would have to run 8 flat with todays shoe technology to get the record.
Im just worried in the next few years that these guys are going to start breaking the records of El G and Komen and no one will understand those records are infinitely more impressive because they were set without super shoes.
An honest response: Why would we era-adjust times to the EPO era? Why not back to the 60s? El G's 3:43 era-adjusted to 1967 is only worth like a 3:52, because as every Letsrun user knows, Jim Ryun would run 3:40 with El G's technological benefits. Really, Grant Fisher's 8:03 would convert to a 7:55 if era-adjusted to the 90s/2000s because he'd be able dope as much as he could.
See how this is kinda silly? Ultimately, the sport is about racing, and for the last year, we have been getting incredible racing. Whether it's seemingly every DL 5k going 12:40-low, Jakob taking it out fast and seeing who can hold on, or Sifan Hassan running the 1500m at WCs right before and right after running one of the best marathons in history, we are getting a spectacular product.
It is true that fast times don't mean quite as much as they did a few years ago, but the shoes aren't the whole reason for that. Now, the top 1500m runner in the NCAA is one of the best in the world. Hocker and Garcia Romo came 6th/4th in global finals, but Hocker still got beat by Teare/Nuguse during the season, and Garcia Romo didn't even win NCAA outdoors. The shoes are making everyone a bit faster, but also, the US as a whole has stepped up. There's a ton of depth, as evidenced by Nuguse being a gold medal favorite, Hocker being a strong medal contender, and Kessler being the #4 fastest indoor miler/world champion at age 20. Grant Fisher routinely gets beaten at USAs, but he still comes top 5 in global championships. A top-5 guy in the world running 12:51 isn't actually crazy at all.
Magnus IS better at chess. Just like Hobbs Kessler IS better than Jim Ryun.
Hobbs Kessler: 3:32.76(May 27, 2023)
Jim Ryun: 3:33.1
Jim Ryun in his prime would DESTROY Kessler if time machined into our era, on our tracks in our shoes, or Kessler sent back to grow up in Ryun's, or even prime Kessler just using Ryun's era shoes and tracks.
Plenty of shoes are out there from 15 years ago. Why can't we get a few people to run a time trial to see? Shoe companies should be happy to support it because it shows how good the modern ones are.
The issue isn’t the shoes or the tracks. The issue is the denial of the performance boost provided by them.
In the past nobody denied that all weather tracks were faster than cinders. In the past nobody denied that synthetic shoes were better than leather.
Today there’s a push, mainly by younger runners, to claim that the shoes and tracks aren’t causing the faster times. They want to say it “better training or better nutrition”, which is complete nonsense.
This is the reality of any competitive institution. There is inflation due to tech, training methodologies and implementation, and as Malcolm gladwell puts it "accumulative advantage" on a higher quantity of individuals.
I'll compare it to chess, as I'm very familiar with the pro scene there. If Magnus Carlsen played Bobby fisher, Bobby has 0 chance of winning. And I mean absolutely 0 chance. Based on stockfish (chess super computer) magnus is the best player of all time by far. However, Bobby learned chess from books, playing games in NYC parks, and the newspaper reading notation. Magnus, with chess supercomputers, after every game could instantly analyze every move he made, why it was good or bad, see the next perfect 20 moves to understand why it was a good move AND had been doing this since he was a child. He also had the ability with the internet to play hundreds of games per day against top ranked grandmasters from all over the world.
Magnus IS better at chess. Just like Hobbs Kessler IS better than Jim Ryun.
Now, if you want to make the claim that one is more impressive than the other, I'm all ears. And that's the conversation that needs to be had, but you can't disregard what grant or any of these other athletes are doing.
Improved shoes and tracks result in materially faster times.
Clearly a 12:51 today is not as impressive as a 12:51 run 10 years ago
My condolences that you had to race on 160 meter plywood tracks in spikes that are inferior to a $65 pair of Nike Rival D but, time and tech march on.
Haha, this was me is HS. I’m only 45. I had a dream last night that the track I was running on felt like a trampoline. It was inside the old ETSU facility with the big indoor track (I think they tore it down?).
The dream was awful and I woke up super stressed that my run was all screwed up and I’d have to count it as an off day. Running in dreams always feels weird. I never have fast dreams. Always awkward palsy-like running or moonbounce running.
This is the reality of any competitive institution. There is inflation due to tech, training methodologies and implementation, and as Malcolm gladwell puts it "accumulative advantage" on a higher quantity of individuals.
I'll compare it to chess, as I'm very familiar with the pro scene there. If Magnus Carlsen played Bobby fisher, Bobby has 0 chance of winning. And I mean absolutely 0 chance. Based on stockfish (chess super computer) magnus is the best player of all time by far. However, Bobby learned chess from books, playing games in NYC parks, and the newspaper reading notation. Magnus, with chess supercomputers, after every game could instantly analyze every move he made, why it was good or bad, see the next perfect 20 moves to understand why it was a good move AND had been doing this since he was a child. He also had the ability with the internet to play hundreds of games per day against top ranked grandmasters from all over the world.
Magnus IS better at chess. Just like Hobbs Kessler IS better than Jim Ryun.
Now, if you want to make the claim that one is more impressive than the other, I'm all ears. And that's the conversation that needs to be had, but you can't disregard what grant or any of these other athletes are doing.
Faster and better aren’t synonymous. The conditions under which the time is run matters.
You want to call Hobbs Kessler better solely because of his time, without considering the conditions.
**On a Tire track with massive bounce that is slightly banked, with pacers, an electronic bunny ghost on the side, and within the trees to prevent cross winds, and shoes that are 5.5 inches of bounce foam.**
the world: 🤷😵💫 no one cares. lol. Literally no one cares. Even 90% of people on letsrun do not even care at this point.