To any HADD followers....

If necessary, it is OK to run at a lower HR than he suggests.

However, I calc 70% of HRreserve for you to be 146, and 125-134 to be 56-63%. Unless you are one extremely aerobically fit runner (and personally I have a hard time seeing sub130 as being plausible for someone with your HRs), you must be running extremely extremely easy on these runs. Maybe you're totally trashed (like the day after a thon) or maybe there is something else going on, but I cannot see 128hr for a typical run.

If you don't mind, it would be interesting to see the paces of these runs relative to your 5K pace.

My 2 cents, your easy days should feel easy and it is far better to err on the side of a little too slow than a little too fast. Use your heart monitor for guidance, but don't be a slave to it. If 125-135HR feels like the right pace for easy days then use that pace.

JEH,

Thanks for your input.

5k pace is around 5:55-6:00 with a HRavg of probably around 178 and HR max of 189. Pace for 125-135/easy or long runs is 8:20-9:00 (I live in a slightly hilly area)

OB

Hadd did say that his older runners were running their slow runs at 120-125, but they had HRmax in the 170's.

Which would correlate to high 130s for you.

Most people would not actually be running at that % effort level, so if you are, its quite impressive and you have great aerobic efficiency.

David

Yeah, I totally agree with all of post collegiate's response. Still interested in those paces, though.

HRmax-65bps?? At the very least, this would be one unique dude.

Dang, I am too slow for you guys. Paces look good for easy days, so I am with davidw... impressive aerobic efficiency. I see no problems with what you're doing. After a bit (when you know the drill), take off that HR strap... it's gonna be summer soon and you don't want the tanlines.

Post collegiate and JEH,

Thanks. I think you guys are right. The key on easy days is to really recover. I'll give it 7-10 weeks at this low range and look forward to some improvment.

OB

I guess that those paces may mean aerobic efficiency, but I think by LT is pretty week.. My best Marathon pace, last Oct. was 7:40 and using HADDs formula for a relationship between different (5k pace of 5:55 to 6:00) I appear to be a slug.

Onionbush, I found your case striking, so I have been doing some more thinking on it. Honestly, I had a hard time making sense of it... such a low easy HR (but not such a slow pace for 130 given the 5K pace), and a marathon pace that does drop off a bit from what you could run (for sure... I don't want to use your description of your LT, so let's just call it a large opportunity).

So, I went to Mr. Magic 8 Ball for you. Gave him a shake, and the following is what we've come up with. (see if any applies)

1) Could it be that you like to train really easy and really fast? Could you run at 160-170 for a long time with not much strain? Perhaps there is an opportunity for you (especially for the long races) to substitute a couple of your interval days with a "tempo run" (starting at 150-160) and then edging that HR up after you can go the whole way (say 10miles) with the HR not rising much, while the pace remains static.

2) No one really likes this, but to run a good marathon, I can't think of too many ways around it... you may not be running enough (I am not saying you have to run more - just to run your best thon, you may have to, though). No need to go crazy... just very slowly build up by adding a couple miles here and there after runs... And after some time, you can be running 80 with hardly more perceived effort than what you're running now. Of course, you could tell me you are / have been running 70+, in which case I would wager a cold Dr. Pepper that I have waiting for me that number 1 is right.

So, am I close?

JEH,

Thanks for responding. In answering #1, I actually have been doing a few 155-160 10 milers/week for the last 3-4 weeks. I am going to move up to 160-165 prob. in a week or so when HR and pace are steady. I am looking for a good flat course to use but for now the one I have has hills so there is some fluctuation in Hr/pace but not much.

#2 I actually have been averaging around 70 miles (from an avg. of 60-65 the months before) since the beginning of the year. I intend to start adding a few miles here and there to take it up to maybe 80 or so.

Other data:I did a 2400 test today:(slighty windy and a little rain but scheduling a time to do it is difficult)

140-8:03 pace

150-7:33 pace

160-7:04 pace

170-6:33 pace

180-6:08 pace

I really don't think I could 170 for a marathon at this point,in fact I know it.

Effort pretty much correlates to "Joes" with 180 being a real mother and I wouldn't be able to hold for 5k.

Once again, thanks for the constructive feedback!

OB

Onionbush, fyi I am a masters runner (45+) with 5k times and HR very similar to yours. I basically have been following Hadd's training program since the beginning of this year. My first six weeks, moving from about 50mpw to 75 mpw I ran without using my heart monitor, just by perceived effort. Somewhere in the 7:30-8:00 pace range felt comfortable to me for my easy runs over slightly hilly terrain. After six weeks I started using the heart monitor and found that my easy run pace was about 135-145HR. I now find that 140-150HR feels as comfortable as the old 135-145HR effort and my easy run pace has moved down to about the 7:10-7:30 range.

Onionbush, stick to the Hadd plan (like you're doing), and you will rewrite all your PRs significantly (especially that marathon) by the Fall. 2 Dr. Peppers on that.

You need to be conscientious about moving the paces up too quickly (and I have a hard time saying that as I am all about the hard work) as your LT is (or previously was) near nonsensical.

Have you entered the 2003 PR challenge?

Post Collegiate- Thanks for the info. I might start doing one easy day at a little higer HR range and see how it goes.

JEH- Thanks. I do need to be careful about moving up the LTHR days, especially when/if I am running with friends who would not buy into this.

I have not heard of the 2003 PR Challenge. What is it?

Onionbush.

The above thread details the 2003 PR Challenge. Basically, the best PR wins a FREE BEER! Or, I guess in the underaged Magness case (should he be fortunate enough to win - another good race could really help his cause), a FREE DR. PEPPER (unless he chooses to defer the award, again... IF he wins). Good Luck!

Easy days are for recovery. The HADD approach has to many guildlines and numbers and such. As soon as you become a slave to any of the numbers games (mpw, hr, time...etc) you'll end up paying for it. Remember everyone is different and there is no cookie cutter way to make your times go down. Listen to your body and use the HADD approach as an outline.

This brings up a question I've had on easy HR.....For one's easy running HR, Hadd says start about 50 bpm below HRmax. Isn't this a much lower effort level for someone with a HRmax of 170 than 200? It seems like we should be going off percent effort level (eg. Karvonen) instead of a flat number below max??

For me (180 max HR), my 70% Karvonen is 142,while "50 below max" is 130. Huge difference for me, as slow as I am!

i think this brings up a question of paralysis by analysis.

i dont think an 18 minute 5k'er would be helped by becoming a worrywort over HR on every... single.... damn... run.

what would help is, oh, say a 25 percent or more increase in mileage. but that smacks of flippancy, so ill say that kenyans just go out and run enough and run hard enough to just KNOW which pace is what, and probably still retain my flippancy

dsk wrote:

Easy days are for recovery.

Not entirely for recovery. If they were, we'd all take our easy days completely off. But we run on them because we also intend to get an aerobic training benefit.

It IS possible to run your easy days too easy. Best to run them in the right range than either too easy or too hard.

Your pace looks fine for your easy runs - the point of

these is recovery, so as long as your form doesn't

degenerate into something that doesn't remotely resemble

your normal running stride, I don't think its possible to

run "too slowly" on your easy days.

You might think about about pushing the pace up slightly

on your longer runs (while still keeping your heartrate

within the desired range). The main reason I suggest this

is that at some point time becomes an issue on longer

runs - running for more than 2 1/2 hours is stressful

on the body, no matter how slowly you do it. I don't

know if your long runs are long enough for this to be

a factor, but I know for me that keeping the long runs

within a reasonable time frame makes recovery quicker

and easier - even if I run slightly faster to do so

(but still at an easy aerobic pace).