How many 400s @ 3k and how much rest

10x 400 at 3k should feel pretty comfortable with 2 min rest. You would also be fine with equal rest. But since your stated objective is to feel the pace, it’s ok be conservative, feel strong and then adjust the next workout. 800s at 3k pace is a much more demanding workout. I’d use 300s, 400s, 500s, 600s.

Break it up that way you can learn what your 3k potential is without the potential for too much overkill.

2x(5x400) equal rest. 5 min between sets.

if you ran 90 with 90 sec rest and it was easy I would def start around 85 with 85 sec rest. If after the first 5 it’s not too hard(you don’t need the entire 5 min to feel ready to go) then for the second set you can try cutting down from 85 to 82-80ish

good luck

Some great posts already. 10-12 is plenty. Equal rest should be good, so around 90s. Could also do 200m slow jog. 800s are definitely a much harder workout. I’d probably start with 200s or 300s. Work to 400s and max out at 600s but that’s probably not even necessary if you’re racing frequently. Better to be cautious and stick with 200 to 400m reps.

Early season my squad really liked 12x400m w/ 400m jog rest, we’d keep it 3k pace for 8-9 reps and then start cutting down to mile if we felt good

To drop down to 3k pace I would start with 300s. 10-12 x 300m with 100m walk/jog recovery is a great first workout at this pace, followed by 8-10 x 400m with 200m walk/jog recovery. From there, stepping up to 500s and 600s with similar total volume and work:rest ratios is appropriate. I think, unless you’re a highly developed runner or doing a very targeted, lower volume workout (ie, 3 x 1000m or 4 x 800m with longer recovery, to dial in pace), that intervals 800 or longer at 3k pace are an overly-taxing workout and should be used sparingly if at all.

One of our coach's staple workouts is 16 x 400 w/60s rest. I've done it averaging 2 seconds faster than my 3k PR pace (68 compared to 70) feeling like I could've completed another 4 reps in control and I'm not even a workout warrior - I race much better than I train actually.

I would guess that's probably because someone with decent mid distance speed coming off of a strong aerobic base can crank really fast 400s relative to their longer distance race times.

Okay I finished with an average of 85 (84.9). My PR is actually 11:40 so this was sub 2 mile pace…maybe too fast?

By the last 2 I was really feeling it, but then again I was also super consistent all throughout and was able to go a little faster on my final rep.

I think I could have done 2 more to get to 12 without falling off but after that I would probably have been a mess.

Don’t think I could have done 16 like someone else said.

Also I thought 800s at 3k were good/a staple 3k workout?? Useful to know they’re a lot for a HSer tho

It’s a fine distinction, but I think 800-1200m intervals with 1:1 (or less) work:recovery are best done at 5k pace/effort for runners without a lot of aerobic development. That little difference in pace/effort makes those longer intervals very hard for most high schoolers.

(Of course, everyone is an experiment of one, and also, again, longer recovery and less total volume may also make those longer 3k-paced intervals okay, if done sparingly.)

Yes, 800s at a HS girl's pace fit well into the "3-5min workbouts, equal or somewhat shorter rest" protocol that's been shown to develop VO2 max. The problem is that high school runners--really, inexperienced runners in general--tend to run them wrong: uneven pacing within reps, variable times from one rep to the next, and in general too hard a workout overall. So, as multiple posters have suggested, building up to 800s is often useful just because a runner will have a much better feel for keeping a steady pace throughout the session if s/he has built up to it, starting with shorter reps.

The other wrinkle, as suggested by a previous poster, is that your max VO2 pace more closely corresponds to what you can run maximally for 13-15 minutes, rather than your ~10:45-50 pace for a 3k PR (assuming your 11:40 PR is for two miles or 3200m). At your speeds, this would be more in the range of your steady pace for 4000m, rather than 3000.

And yes, I'd err toward the side of doing 800s at something like your 5k pace for the first one or two times you do them. Then you could get closer to 3k pace in later sessions.

Got it, thanks and good to know.

And yes 11:40 is my full 2 mile PR.

Also with my 11:40 2 mile PR is there harm in going faster than that pace (instead 85 avg)? Was it then a useless workout?

I want to know for future reference because then I’ll need to be more strict. I started off the first two slower then was just repping very consistent 84s and a couple 83s. I told myself to slow down a bit but I never did

Hey champ good running. I have several young females that have run around your ability. We do 400's on short cycles 2 min or 2:20. This means if on a 2min cycle and you ru 90 seconds you get 30 seconds rest. For 10x400 we do in 2 sets on 2:20 or about 1 min rest. 3 min rest between sets. They run 79-82 sec pace per 400. We also finish w/1k threshold. We add 200's at 1500m pace on 1:30 cycle the closer we get to racing as well. Hills and thresholds on other days.

Good luck!

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You told 12 x 400m @ 5k pace felt easy so try extend amount of reps to 20x 400m @ 5 k pace and rest easy walking 60 sec or wait until your pulse is back to 60% of max heartrate.

Then you can alternate with 10-12 x 400m @ 3 k pace and rest easy walking back to pulse 60% of max heartrate or approximately 120-125 beats/ min.

The third magic workout interval you can alternate with will be a 1500m race pace repetition . When doing this the main purpose is to get your body relax @ 1500m race pace and then it's most important the body gets rest needed after every rep , so the rest can be long, 6-8 x 400m @ 1500m race pace and rest back to approximately 100 bpm or less( ca 50% of max heartrate) .

Then in addition you need to repeat longer threshold reps @ around half marathon pace with rest back to 120-125 bpm .

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If your goal is the 3k/2mi then 12x400 progresses to 6x800 then 5x1k and then maybe 4x1200. Each week you move up in distance you try to run the same pace. Rest is 3min easy jog after each interval. Every 2-3wks do 8x400 at mile pace instead. Your second workout of the week should be a threshold workout. How many weeks do you have to the indoor season? Keep in mind if your in this specific phase to long your going to burn out and not peak well for states etc.

No, he is one of the very best online coaches we have at LR.

Thanks this was super helpful.

States is early March. New Balance Nationals is the following week, which is March 9-12th I think. So I guess I want to be my best end of February (have to qualify for states first!) to mid-March.

So is starting the phase now fine??