Update on my 400/800 athlete + training

CopperRunner wrote:

old48guu wrote:

Looking forward to following along. These are almost my PBs exactly from my first year of high school.

No one seems to know how to train 400/800 guys well so interested to see your approach. Looks good so far!

Thank you!

Im excited for him. He’s a sophomore, and definitely not the hitting puberty early type so I think he’s gonna have a TON of upswing in the next couple of seasons. Not a lot of middle distance sophomores out there hanging with 49-52 PB guys in an open 400m.

As of right now, I want to develop him in almost that Brazier 4/8 but also capable of running a fast 1600m sort of way.

He shot me a text today after reflecting on his race and said he wants to aim for sub 52 and sub 2:00 this season, which until last weekend I didn’t think would’ve been realistic, but he already just about has the pre-requisite speed to break 2:00, and his workouts are showing he’s picking up that miler strength pretty quick (hitting 4:20-4:40 pace on those 300s w/short rest is an utterly massive improvement from his 5:3x mile time trial and 20 minute 5ks during XC season)

I want to get him there, we are in the western mountain region, where if you’re running 52 and 1:59 or faster sophomore year you are most definitely getting college looks, and the inevitable puberty boost will set him up to be a star by the time he’s a senior! Pretty excited about it.

high school xc coach wrote:

CopperRunner wrote:

Thank you!

Im excited for him. He’s a sophomore, and definitely not the hitting puberty early type so I think he’s gonna have a TON of upswing in the next couple of seasons. Not a lot of middle distance sophomores out there hanging with 49-52 PB guys in an open 400m.

As of right now, I want to develop him in almost that Brazier 4/8 but also capable of running a fast 1600m sort of way.

He shot me a text today after reflecting on his race and said he wants to aim for sub 52 and sub 2:00 this season, which until last weekend I didn’t think would’ve been realistic, but he already just about has the pre-requisite speed to break 2:00, and his workouts are showing he’s picking up that miler strength pretty quick (hitting 4:20-4:40 pace on those 300s w/short rest is an utterly massive improvement from his 5:3x mile time trial and 20 minute 5ks during XC season)

I want to get him there, we are in the western mountain region, where if you’re running 52 and 1:59 or faster sophomore year you are most definitely getting college looks, and the inevitable puberty boost will set him up to be a star by the time he’s a senior! Pretty excited about it.

interested to see how that 800s workout goes. sounds like a stretch for him. I would maybe want to break him in with something like 2 minutes standing/walking rest, instead of the 200 jogging rest. Looking forward to seeing how this breaks for him

CopperRunner wrote:

Same, weirdly enough I think it’ll be the biggest test I give him in a while. I’ve been out on his distance runs a few times and I often have to tell him to calm it down as he will pick it up to sub 7:00 pace and feel “comfortable” (hard to gauge this for a young inexperienced athlete, I remember calling 6:50 pace easy day pace when I was barely breaking 18) but this is one of those workouts you can’t really fake. If +\- 6:00 pace is your actual threshold pace or near it, those 200m jogs are a blessing instead of torture. I have a creeping suspicion he’s in 4:50-5:00 mile shape already which would make that workout super reasonable, so the idea is to see if threshold is feeling better based off of his 5k pace or his mile pace.

I may add too, I guess he kind of got brutalized in XC, they’d just send the boys group out for 800s with the leaders running 2:25-2:30, and instead of giving him a goal pace they’d just tell him to hold on as long as possible. He said he’d break 2:30 a couple times and fall quick, like a 2:45 and then 3:00-3:10s for the remainder of the workout. That also gives me a vote of confidence that even with a much shorter rest (I think they gave 3-4 minutes standing) he will be able to handle +\- 3:00 reps fine. We will see though, if I can see he’s straining to hold pace before the last rep or two I’ll alter the workout even if he’s completing the reps.

coahc wrote:

Thanks for sharing.

54.8 is good running over 400m and should set him up nicely for a good 800m in 2024 particularly if you haven't done a lot of fast running yet.

It is always interesting to see how coaches approach different events and the 800m is very unique.

Our track season started here in October with our National Championships in April so with that long of a season we don't really do much specific 800m stuff till after the New Year but 2 of my young guys have run 1:56.08 and 1:57.07 respectfully in the first half of the season. They are both very talented as they are only 16 and 14. They have pb's over 400m from last season of 52.2 and 54.1 but I expect they are both much faster due to growth and strength.

Your 800m threshold session w/200 jog is not something that we would do. We like broken threshold work that covers anywhere between 5-7k for 800/1500m athletes. Instead of a jog sometimes we add in a float recovery which is another way to stress the aerobic system.

Good luck with the coaching and keep us updated.

CopperRunner wrote:

coahc wrote:

Here are a few sample threshold sessions that we use keeping in mind these are all on grass:

Session 1 3k/1500/1k all with 1 min rest

Session 2 4x1500 all with 1 min rest

Session 3 1500m threshold 1k float 1500 threshold 1k float 1k threshold (threshold pace 3:25-3:30k pace float pace 3:45-4min k pace)

We also finish many of our sessions running 1-2k at threshold (got this idea from Peter Coe who did this with Seb)

As you state that your athlete is a 400/800m athlete you really know this if he starts to respond to threshold work.

If your program has a bunch of 50-52 guys it is pretty clear that they are lacking aerobic fitness if they can't run under 2 minutes. I have had a runner run 1:50.05 and his pb for 400m was 51.1 :)

Totally agree, in past years this program tends to have 2-4 distance runners that’ll run 16:00 +\- 30 seconds for 3 miles hilly XC and then they are running 50-54 during relays or even open during the season. You’d think this would mean the program should have a slew of sub 2:00 sub 4:30 guys consistently but that hasn’t been the case. 1:58 or 4:27.5 will land you on the all time top 10 list. The problem is that they have these top guys doing 40-60 mile weeks in the summer which is great basebuilding for highschoolers, but XC season is Vo2Max and 5k pace essentially every other day and no longer work or mileage, as it sinks to 20-25 miles by this point. Track is rough, 15-20 mpw which is enough for very talented guys to break 2:00 but no ones really hitting their potential there, it’s not Will Sumner 15-20 mpw it’s 8x400m in 65 but none of the team is fit enough for that so everyone falls apart and they get probably 2-3 productive reps per workout. We are in an extremely competitive region, like EXTREMELY, after this past cross season it may be the most competitive in the country for 1600-3200-XC. The team I’m at clearly falters in this region and the coach tries to force fitness with fast workouts but ignores the fact that the top dogs are running 60 mpw in the season.

Like you implied with finding out if he is or is not more of a miler through the threshold work, I’m still expecting him to be a top 3 1600 guy on this team if not 1st by the end of the season. The trend on this team is that the number 1 guy runs 4:30-4:35, with the occasional 4:2x type. The 5 man varsity line up usually looks something like:

4:3x-4:4x-4:4x-4:5x-4:5x

Thanks for the broken threshold examples, I think this weeks session should be a perfect prerequisite to move towards work like that, and seeing that you are cranking out sub 2:00 guys like it’s no ones business I will definitely give that type of work a go.

CopperRunner wrote:

I’ve decided I’ll try to document the guy i’ve been training on here because it’s starting to look like he’s going to be very good, and I know some people find these threads helpful/entertaining/inspiring when they pan out.

As a refresher on my athletes background:

He started with:

19:10ish 3 mile PB

57.8 400m PB

25.3 200m PB

12.0 100m PB

I just had him run a 54.6 400m for his first race of the season, and we were pretty thrilled about that! Most of the guys at this race ran 2-3 seconds slower than their past years season best as well, it wasn’t a particularly fast track or race.

In the week leading up to his race I had him do:

Mon: 4 miles easy, 4x50m

Tues: 300-250-200-150-100 at 90-95% effort, 4:00 active recovery, roughly 500-600m race pace in spikes

Wed: 5 miles easy

Thurs: 1 mile WU, 2x50m, 2x200m, 5 minutes rest, block start on rep 1, running start on rep 2, he ran 25.9 and 24.8 for this tuneup workout.

Friday: Race in 54.6, split about 26.5 and 28, we both agree he wasn’t as aggressive as he could’ve been.

Sat: 6.5 miles easy and 3x150m floats (roughly 800m pace)

Sun: off.

I made sure to make this week a good tuneup/sharpening week, because my athlete was very enthusiastic about dropping a big PR in mid december to set him up to run fast throughout indoors. I think the confidence boost he’s gained has more than made up for the relative lack of work that week.

This week:

Mon: 5 miles easy

Tues: 4x300m w/ 1:30 rest, 5:00 to spike up and get water and then 4x200m w/2:30 rest. I was just looking for 54s on the 300m as he’s a bit aerobically underdeveloped, and more used to very long rest due to his sprint background, but he surprised me with 54-51-51-46, and then he ran 29s like a metronome as instructed. I’m very pleased with this workout, I think it says he’s in 2:0x shape which I really wasn’t expecting from him in december!

Wed: 3-5 miles easy today depending on how he’s feeling

Thurs: 6x800m at projected threshold(?) pace with 200m jog. His 3 mile PB says his threshold pace is around 6:50-7:00 per mile, which from what I’ve seen will be entirely ineffective for him, so we are going to try to go more like 2:55-3:00 for these reps. If he can’t handle it or starts looking too fatigued I’ll slow him down but I think this will be effective.

Fri: 3-5 miles easy depending on fatigue.

Sat: 3x50m block starts, 100-150-200-150-100 @400m effort w/ full rest

Sun: off or cross train

Hopefully this thread is enjoyable to some users, feel more than free to ask questions or criticize any of it!

CopperRunner wrote:

CopperRunner wrote:

I’ve decided I’ll try to document the guy i’ve been training on here because it’s starting to look like he’s going to be very good, and I know some people find these threads helpful/entertaining/inspiring when they pan out.

As a refresher on my athletes background:

He started with:

19:10ish 3 mile PB

57.8 400m PB

25.3 200m PB

12.0 100m PB

I just had him run a 54.6 400m for his first race of the season, and we were pretty thrilled about that! Most of the guys at this race ran 2-3 seconds slower than their past years season best as well, it wasn’t a particularly fast track or race.

In the week leading up to his race I had him do:

Mon: 4 miles easy, 4x50m

Tues: 300-250-200-150-100 at 90-95% effort, 4:00 active recovery, roughly 500-600m race pace in spikes

Wed: 5 miles easy

Thurs: 1 mile WU, 2x50m, 2x200m, 5 minutes rest, block start on rep 1, running start on rep 2, he ran 25.9 and 24.8 for this tuneup workout.

Friday: Race in 54.6, split about 26.5 and 28, we both agree he wasn’t as aggressive as he could’ve been.

Sat: 6.5 miles easy and 3x150m floats (roughly 800m pace)

Sun: off.

I made sure to make this week a good tuneup/sharpening week, because my athlete was very enthusiastic about dropping a big PR in mid december to set him up to run fast throughout indoors. I think the confidence boost he’s gained has more than made up for the relative lack of work that week.

This week:

Mon: 5 miles easy

Tues: 4x300m w/ 1:30 rest, 5:00 to spike up and get water and then 4x200m w/2:30 rest. I was just looking for 54s on the 300m as he’s a bit aerobically underdeveloped, and more used to very long rest due to his sprint background, but he surprised me with 54-51-51-46, and then he ran 29s like a metronome as instructed. I’m very pleased with this workout, I think it says he’s in 2:0x shape which I really wasn’t expecting from him in december!

Wed: 3-5 miles easy today depending on how he’s feeling

Thurs: 6x800m at projected threshold(?) pace with 200m jog. His 3 mile PB says his threshold pace is around 6:50-7:00 per mile, which from what I’ve seen will be entirely ineffective for him, so we are going to try to go more like 2:55-3:00 for these reps. If he can’t handle it or starts looking too fatigued I’ll slow him down but I think this will be effective.

Fri: 3-5 miles easy depending on fatigue.

Sat: 3x50m block starts, 100-150-200-150-100 @400m effort w/ full rest

Sun: off or cross train

Hopefully this thread is enjoyable to some users, feel more than free to ask questions or criticize any of it!

Athlete did well for that broken threshold session, you guys were right, he needed a bit extra rest. I changed it from 200m jog to 200m walk and that seemed about right.

I paced him for this one for a double thresh sesh, and we went 3:08-3:00-2:55-2:55-2:57-2:54.

He said he felt good, he said it was a 7/10 effort where it was uncomfortable but not a super hard workout overall

coahc wrote:

FartKing69 wrote:

Coahc, do you mind breaking down your workout schedule at a high level? Just something like what an average week will look like in the early phase, mid phase, and comp phase?

I work with a variety of athletes including 2 athletes that have been to world champs in 2023(XC and 800m) but I will keep geared at the High school level of an athlete that ran 3:54/8:25 in recent weeks. It is very challenging coaching in Australia as the seasons roll into each other fairly quickly. Here is an example of an early season week of 18 year old male on 80k (50 miles per week):

Early Phase (winter)

Monday OFF or 6-8k easy running

Tuesday Fartlek 16-20x1min on w/1 min float (1 min on at 3:05-10k pace float at 3:45k pace) or 3-4x3/2/1min efforts with 1 min float

Wednesday 10-12k

Thursday Threshold 3k/1k float/3k (threshold pace example 3:20 pace float 3:45k pace last 3k a little faster maybe 3:15 + 5x100m at 1500m pace w/100walk

Friday recovery 6-8k

Saturday 12k Surging hills over very hill circuit + they will add a few k's after or 12k progressive (different routes both on dirt)

Sunday 20k

Mid Phase example (Srping)

Monday off

Tuesday TRACK 2x200 threshold + 2x5-7x400 on 1:45 cycle 2 min between sets +1k threshold or 3x3x400 as 400on 200 float + 3x800 as 200 float 200 on

Wednesday 10-12k

Thursday Threshold 2x3k +1500 all with 1 min rest +5x100m w/100m jog recovery

Friday 8k

Saturday 5x1k on 4:30 cycle + 4x300m hill on 3 min cycle

Sunday 18k

Competition phase with race in 2 weeks (Summer)

Monday OFF

Tuesday track 2x200 threshold 3x1k as 400 on 200 float + 8x200 on 90 second cycle + 5 min threshold or 2x5x400 on 1st set on 2 min cycle 2nd set on 2:30 cycle (more race specific)

Wednesday 8-10k

Thursday 2x2.5k threshold + 5x100m hill efforts

Friday 6-8k

Saturday 2x1k/600/300 on various cycles long rest between sets5x100m w/100 walk Or 6x300m hill on 4 min cycle

Sunday 16k

This is basically what we do pretty much year round. We are only on the track once per week with all other sessions on grass or dirt. My high school aged athletes rarely double. The young athlete that ran the 3:54 we have done no work at 62-63 second 400pace as of yet and my younger athletes do less but similar. We like to run hills year round and do our lactate tolerance session on a 300m grass hill that is pretty good as it wraps around. Any questions happy to answer.