Critique this 800m workout for masters

random thoughts:

you can run 71 400 meter, I would think your 800 would be much faster...but if you haven't been doing much mileage and are more of a sprinter then more understandable.

How to build the speed endurance (because you clearly have the speed already)

I think it makes sense to do high quality - big rest sets...but If it were me, I would start with lower quality sets with less rests (and then work toward what you have proposed).

Something like:

200 - 200 - 200 (seeing if you can do these on 30 seconds rest) just see what you can hit

2nd set 200-200-200 (with a little more rest, but slightly faster) 40-45 rest

3rd set 200-200-200 (even more rest, but faster) up to 60 rest

being able to run with a certain amount of oxygen debt is what this is working. I think this will carry over to helping you hold your 400 speed better in the 800.

From this base workout, you can add in 300's and/or increase the pace as you become more comfortable with the workout.

Let me just throw out some guesses here: again based on your fast 200 ability and your 71 400. these are times you might be able to hit/shoot for:

36-40 on the first set (though you may slow down with each subsequent 200 a little)

the first one will be easy for you, the 2nd and 3rd will not be.

35ish on the middle set

33-34 on the last set

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If you can put four in a row at some point (200-200-200-200) what would be really good.

Each next 200 is expected to be incrementally tougher, so that is why I would start with just 3 in a set - and take a full recovery between sets (2-4 minutes).

Thanks for the detailed response. You're right about needing speed endurance. One injury prevented distance running and another injury prevented pure speedwork so I focused solely on the 400m for the first half of 2023. Now, I'm somewhat injury free.

Your suggested workout sounds great. I did 3 sets of 3x200m a couple of weeks ago with 45 second recovery. I'll try it again with your changes in the next couple of weeks. I don't think I can the times you predicted yet, but maybe I can in a couple of months. Again, thanks.

I too find the drop from your 400 to your estimated 800 to be extreme. I think you need some practice running smoothly with relaxation.

Try 8x200 with 1 minute rests, not as a tough workout, but smooth tempo. Try to get them down to 40 seconds, but make sure you can finish them all at the same speed. Do this for several consecutive weeks.

A tough one is 200s on the minute. You run 4 reps of 200, targeting around 43-44, but only rest 16-17 seconds (start on the minute). After 4 reps, rest 4 minutes, then do another set. The goal is to complete 3 sets, very tough.

Try doing 3x 600m smooth, say 2:30, with 5 minutes rest. Don't push them, but as you feel more comfortable over 3-4 weeks, let them drift closer to 2:15.

I did 9x200 with 60 second recovery on Aug 2nd and averaged 42.6. I'll follow your suggestion to get them down to 40 seconds, hopefully in a couple of months.

I did 6x600 on Aug 14 w/3min recovery, averaging 2:46. I'll try 3x600 as you suggested next week.

Thanks!

The 800m is truly speed endurance event. Your rest periods are too long so you're not getting the benefit. With your injury history you want the high intensity workouts to be specific and low volume as possible.

Alternative Ideas:

* 5 x 300m with 1 min rest. Total volume: 1500m. (Or 2 x 4 x 300m with full rest between sets but it may be too much volume: 2,400m.)

* 3 x 500m at 800m pace / 1 minute rest (jog back 50m) / 150m hard. Full rest between sets. Total volume: 1,950m.

You can also mix it up various ways - instead of 3 x 500m: 600-500-400 at 800m pace with 1 min rest and 150m hard, or 500-400-300. You'll get into that discomfort over and over again so you tolerate it better in a race.

I'd argue that for younger and older runners it's more a high aerobic event. As our power diminishes, I think the anaerobic component diminishes.

I am also an older 400/800 guy who is already at least low 2:40s to low 2:50s and around 70 shape, but no way in hell could I do that session with those rests even with 10 min between sets. For me 10×200 under 40 with 2 min recovery is a stout session. I have never broken 35 in training since turning 60(now 67), but am more of a pure 800 type.

My emphasis is on variety and consistency. No heroic sessions for me, though I have surprised myself a bit every few months. My main limitation at this level is lack of racing opportunities. I am able to find other younger runners willing to help with pacing, which keeps my motivation high.

Maybe try 5x300m with 2 min (walk to start). Get down to 800m pace. Then increase weekly one rep to reach 8x300m. however, some mileage will help the last 200m of your race. Wish you get the second breath...

You're in your mid-70's correct?

You basically have a sub-3 minute goal, 800m. Almost any training can get one to sub-3 minutes, 800m. If you want to move up to 800m then add two 5 mile runs and a 7 1/2 mile run per week. You may need to build up to it. If all you can do: two 2 1/2 mile runs and a 5 mile long run, do that.

Doing intense 200s & 300s with compressed intervals at your age is asking for injuries.

Speed endurance and anything over 300m or under 5 minutes rest is not speed endurance.

You are thinking anaerobic endurance or lactate tolerance. Speed endurance is your ability to maintain top end speed.

Yes. 75.

Due to injuries that prevented me from distance or pure speed, I focused solely on the 400m from January to July. My weekly routine was 3 interval workouts and one easy trail run of 3 miles.

Starting a month ago, I increased to 6 running workouts/week... 3 easy trail runs of 3 miles, two interval workouts, and one longer interval session on a dirt road. This rapid increase in volume and then plateau has worked for me in the past.

As XY said, the paces ewrar suggested are too fast for me, but I like the progressive workout he suggested so I'll adjust pace to what I can handle.

Monthly close to but not all out 800 TTs .

A couple of years ago I started mid 2:40s and worked down to 2:28 over 6 months. Of course the 2:28 was all I had. But seeing the progress from 2:45is down to low 2:30s gave me confidence. The goal was to break 2:30 a month before turning 64. No super shoes

I did 4 or 5 time trials. Also did a few shut downs at 400--600 if I was hurting.

btw my best 400 was only 70low!

this guy has run 31 for 200, so hitting 34-35 (for him) is not a hero workout.

The fact that you can run low 2:40 (which is close to 40 per 200), but can't go sub 35 tells me you have great strength...and would be fine in this workout of 9x200 just adjusting the paces a little. I actually think this is exactly the kind of workout you need. the fact that you need 2 min between intervals says something.

These aren't meant to be all out...and start out easy and get faster.

would you be willing to try this workout:

200-200-200 at 43-44 (30 sec rest)

200-200-200 at 40 (45 sec rest)

200-200-200 at 38 (60 sec rest)

I think you would be able to do it. Of course because you have not been doing short rest intervals, this will be challenging. that's kind of the idea of training - work on your weaknesses. The first set is above your 800 race pace - but it will be a shock to the system to go on such short rest...the idea is to push yourself (see if you can recover quickly enough to go again). the second set is very close to race pace with a little more rest. Since you are only putting 3 in a row not 10, this is doable. The first one is nothing you haven't done before, the second one is just about getting your mind to let you try to run tired (not fully recovered - so you can simulate what the middle of the 800 feels like). The last one, will be a challenge - just to see what you can do. Last set can be cut down to just 2 if mentally it is too much. I often have my athletes just go into it with the idea of doing 2 or 3 but not deciding until they get the 2nd one done. Just a little faster than race pace.

short rest intervals are actually easier mentally than trying to do 10-12 in a row of anything. and you can adjust the workout as you go. by adding a little more rest or doing more or less in each set. Most athletes find in time they can even add a 4th set.

this is more a workout of feel - where you start out easy (slow pace) and gradually get faster as you feel ready for it. Not meant to be some barn stormer hero workout. and by the end the goal/hope is the you can push yourself to a little faster times (for you maybe you find sub 35 in the future). It is amazing what we can do when running tired at the end of a workout out - if we build into it properly. For myself, I rarely have time goals, I just start running and let the times comes to me. It is the rest/recovery times that I am trying to hit.

That session is fine but it is very different from the first. This finishes just under my 800 pace, whereas the first finished under 400 pace (and off short rest at the end of a tough session.)

Short recoveries have their place at certain points as the season progresses, but for sessions of about ten reps at race pace, two minutes is standard and appropriate.

Your post is to XY, but I might be able to handle this workout at slightly slower paces. I can't see a rationale for running my last set of 3x200m in 35 seconds when 35sec per 200m is my 400m race pace and my goal 800m pace is 44 seconds per 200.

I'll try this workout next week and see if I can average under 40 for the last set. I hurt my back and can't run right now, but I should be rested when I can return to running in a few days.

How old are you?

Also, your 800m time doesn't do justice to your ability.

Edit: your workout is fine BTW

You're selling yourself short with that 600 & 2:56 goal. You can come close to 2:30 with a 71. The question is if this workout is good. Sure. You're not doing it every single week. It has it's place. Volume 200s/300s has its place. I think some strength would be good for you: 2 x (1k-200-200); ladder down- 1k/8/6/5/3/2; 3x400 w./ full rest, 500-600 TT; volume 400s @ mile; etc.

Do you know how old is o.p? At age 50, 4 months or age 50, 5 months, I ruined my Achilles trying to train like a young man. At age 50, 3 months my Achilles were fine.

O.p. has a 2:56 800m goal. One can mostly jog 90% of training to achieve said goal. As a former sprinter, o.p. doesn't want to log too many miles. I understand but posters recommending Achilles-busting workouts are not helping o.p.

To give you an idea I used to run 8 x 200m at 800m pace with 2 mins rest

and 5 x 300m at 800m pace with 5 mins rest

your workout seems very very hard to complete especially for a 400m specialist

i would either anticipate slower than 800m pace for these reps or increased rest