Top Ten HS Cross Country Teams EVER?

Cheyenne mountain is a sleeper

Boerne Champion 2009

on the girls side it would be 2004 Saratoga and F-M a million times over.

In the NXN era:

1. 2021 Newbury Park

2. 2022 Newbury Park

3. 2014 FM

4. 2015 Great Oak

5. 2004 York

6. 2004 FM

7. 2018 Loudoun Valley

8. 2021 Cheyenne Mountain

9. 2011 CBA

10. 2005 Saratoga

HM: 2017 Loudoun, 2021 Jesuit, 2019 Newbury Park, both Arcadia teams, 2013 Gig Harbor

Any teams before the NXN era it’s really hard to say, but Hammond High would definitely be up there as well as some of the York teams.

For the girls:

1. 2010 FM

2. 2004 Saratoga

3-10. Some combination of FM and Toga’s other winning teams. Sad to say I don’t think even Summit, Wayzata, Niwot, or Smoky Hill’s great teams crack the top 10. Niwot might sneak in there though. I would say 2019 Toga, 2016 FM, 2015 FM are also a tier above the rest, and 2021 Toga might have been if they had an NXN race.

No teams from before the NXN era that I’m aware of could’ve touched the top FM and Toga teams.

I'd honestly consider 2020 NP in the HM category too even without a true national race. Stumptown was kind of a national championship and they dominated there as a team.

They lost Nico Young but got Christian Simone from Great Oak and then you have expected improvement from L&L and Colin Sahlman from just having another year in the legs. Their potential was probably around that 2019 squad overall.

2019 Newbury Park and 2019 Great Oak. both had horrible days at nxn but still went 1-2. I would say both teams are too 5 all-time. don’t believe me? look at their 3 mile times at Woodbridge that year

If you want to look at their 5k times at the state meet keep in mind that Clovis is a hill course. It is slower than a flat 5k by 20 seconds.

I would agree with this. The HM category was not meant to be exhaustive.

Neither had a horrible day at NXN. It's true, their state meet races were more impressive, but NXN was not horrible. FM 2014 is a good example of a phenomenal team that had a horrible day at NXN. All 5 scorers were off their best, and their top runner, a favorite to win (Bryce Millar) was 38th. Newbury Park and Great Oak both performed fairly similarly to their seasonal performances (actually I think both had their 2nd-best race at NXN).

Times are also completely irrelevant, you simply cannot compare accurately across courses (or even across different days on the same course). Speed ratings are not perfect when trying to compare same-day performances, but are a good tool when looking at a whole season. FM 2004 is probably the best example of a team that would be rated higher (3rd) if you looked at single-day speed ratings (2004 Federation meet) while Cheyenne Mountain would be rated way higher (2nd) if you looked at 5k times (2021 RunningLane).

That said, their state meet performance was good enough that Newbury Park probably deserves inclusion, likely 7th. Great Oak could maybe also be included, although I'd place them a tick behind Loudoun Valley in 9th. They could easily be left on the bench though. Top end matters a lot when you're talking about a hypothetical race between all-time great teams, and Great Oak simply did not have it that year.

So an improved list would be:

1. 2021 NP

2. 2022 NP

3. 2014 FM

4. 2015 GO

5. 2004 York

6. 2004 FM

7. 2019 NP

8. 2018 LV

9. 2019 GO

10. 2021 CM

HM: 2011 CBA, 2005 Toga, 2017 Loudoun, 2020 NP, 2021 Jesuit, Arcadia, Gig (and probably more).

Not included: Mead, York, Hammond, Lompec, Carmel, etc.

You guys dont seem to know that Bill Meylan did speed ratings in 2020 too. NP during the covid year, even with their totally dimibshed season were leagues better than 2019 NP or 2019 Great Oak, and probably #3 all time behind NP 21 and 22.

191, 190, 189, 188, 183, 180, 179.

2014 Manlius went 192, 185, 185, 184, 176, 174, 154.

2019 NP went 205, 193, 187, 185, 178, 177, 167

2019 Great Oak went 188, 187, 186, 184, 182, 181, 179.

1. Newbury Park CA, 2021 - 29
2. Newbury Park CA, 2022 - 66
3. Loudoun Valley, VA 2018 - 77
4. Loudoun Valley, VA 2017 - 89
5. Christian Brothers, NJ 2011 - 91
6. York 2004, IL - 91
7. Arcadia 2010, CA - 92
8. Southlake Carroll 2011, TX - 95 (2nd at NXN)
9. Bozeman 2016, MT - 105
10. Arcadia 2012, CA - 108
11. Fayetteville-Manlius 2014, NY - 111
12. Gig Harbor 2013, WA - 111
13. Saratoga Springs 2005, NY - 111
14. Great Oak 2015, CA - 114
15. Great Oak 2018, CA - 114 (2nd at NXN)
16. Littleton 2018, CO - 115 (3rd at NXN)
17. Cheyenne Mountain 2021, CO - 121 (2nd at garmin)
18. American Fork 2012, UT - 122 (2nd at NXN)
19. Neuqua Valley 2007, IL - 125
20. Coatesville 2006, PA - 126
21. Los Alamos 2007, NM - 127 (2nd at NXN)
22. Fayetteville-Manlius 2004, NY - 127 (2nd at NXN)
23. Newbury Park 2019, CA - 128
24. Great Oak 2019, CA - 132 (2nd at NXN)
25. North Central 2008, WA - 134
The teams were ranked accordingly to how well they performed at NXN compared to other teams they raced that year.
Keep in mind this list doesn't consider the fact that NXN gets more and more competitive every year.

I am aware of this. You cherrypicked the best 5 seasonal ratings for 2020 NP, but not for the other teams you mentioned.

2020 NP best 5:

191, 191, 189, 188, 183

Average: 188.4

Spread: 8

Max/Min: 191/183

2019 NP best 5:

205, 193, 187, 185, 178

Average: 189.8

Spread: 27

Max/Min: 205/178

2019 GO best 5:

188, 187, 186, 186, 182

Average: 185.8

Spread: 6

Max/Min: 188/182

2014 FM best 5:

199, 194, 194, 189, 179

Average: 191.0

Spread: 20

Max/Min: 199/179

As you can see, when you look at them on even terms you can see how strong 2019 NP and 2014 FM were. It's also important to note, 2020 speed ratings had a high degree of uncertainty (Meylan himself said so). With no NXN, and questionable ratings, it's best to just drop 2020 NP into the HM category as a "what if".

For anyone curious, the average of the best 5 ratings for the top 10 teams:

2021 NP: 199.0

2022 NP: 196.6

2014 FM: 191.0

2015 GO: 188.6

2004 York: 191.4

2004 FM: 190.0

2019 NP: 189.8

2018 LV: 187.4

2019 GO: 185.8

2021 CM: 188.0

The only one that's out of place is 2019 GO (who I originally did not have on the list). They were very close with 2019 NP at California States and NXN, but I think in a field against these teams, their lack of top-end would really hurt them. If their results were in a normal season, 2020 NP would probably replace them. Saratoga 2005 did have a top 5 average of 189.2, and they beat a very good York team to win NXN that year. They are probably the best replacement, and would slot in somewhere around 2018 LV/2019 NP. 2013 Gig actually had a great top 5 average of 188.2, but their 5th guy being a 176 would put them dead last in that category of these teams (not a great look).

I may also be overrating 2015 GO and 2018 LV but they were both dominant squads strong through seven runners who won NXN (which puts them ahead of teams like 2004 FM and 2021 CM in my book).

Also just for fun, here are the speed ratings for "Kenya XC", a team of a few Kenyan high schoolers competing in the open race at NTN in 2006 and 2007.

2006: 210, 206, 204, 203, 197 (average 204.0)

2007: 207, 206, 202, 201, 201 (average 203.4)

Newbury Park, eat your heart out.

Newbury Park should get an asterisk. It was two families then either Appleford or Seymour.

They all transferred into the school district.

That’s the case with most teams in the top-10. Girls side particularly. The last 5-6 years have been a joke from that standpoint. Will be even worse this year with recruitment and transfers through clubs. Ah that’s life though haha

I posted this in the other "greatest teams" thread, but:

The 2010 FM girls were so good they swept the NY state meet with a perfect 15 points. The second place team in that race was Saratoga who went on to place second at NXN. Its so insane, it almost doesnt make sense.

On the boys side: Everyone knows how good the 2021 NP boys were. But the most insane statistic is that if the Sahlmans and Youngs never existed, and the team was just a hypothetical 5 Daniel appleford's (thier 5th runner) they STILL would have won nxn by 20 points. I've seen people on this forum talk about how great that 2021 Cheyenne mountain team was (and they were) but they look like a limp JV team compared to NP.

There was a substantial gap between York and FM in 2004. No way should they be ranked adjacent to each other i any all-time list.

Saratogs 2005 was better than FM 2004 IMO, but that's a different argument.

Are there any schools whose all time teams would average 199? Or come close by any other metric? I’m sure there are entire states that wouldn’t.

Even with the recent deflation of speed ratings, I’d imagine 199 couldn’t be matched