I was wondering when doing marathon pace in a long run for marathon training, what would be considered better: a single block of marathon pace running or several smaller blocks?
For example: 20 mile long run with 6 miles of marathon pace running at the end versus 20 mile long run with 2 block of 3 miles at marathon pace with a couple of miles at easy pace in between?
Do both!
The closer to the race you get, drop the easy long run and qualify the long run in conjunction with long intervals at goal race pace or a bit faster.
I used to do it separately, for example a 10 mile run at marathon pace from a standing start. I used to do it on a flat loop.
Others would incorporate theirs into a long run of for example 18 miles. To me that is a lot more difficult and I knew it would tire me too much / I wouldn't enjoy it. However I would probably be stronger for it as its hard to switch up the gears mid run.
Would it be overkill to do a seperate marathon pace run and a long run with marathon pace blocks? For example building up to a 10 mile marathon pace run on wednesday and marathon pace blocks in the long run on sunday.
What would be too much marathon pace running (as a % of weekly volume)?
I prefer either faster than marathon pace or slower than marathon pace but rarely did I run anything specifically at Marathon pace
Let me know if you want more information
Red61 wrote:
I prefer either faster than marathon pace or slower than marathon pace but rarely did I run anything specifically at Marathon pace
Let me know if you want more information
I'm interested to hear your viewpoint.
The reason why I ask is because I've read that Lydiard was a fan of 60 minute marathon pace runs ("subtreshold runs") which apparently give great results. As I'm training for a marathon I don't see why I wouldn't do them.
On the other hand I don't want to do easy/steady long runs only. I think it would be great to include some marathon pace in the long runs.
But I'm not sure how to combine the two ideas. Maybe it's too much, maybe it's unnecessary, ... I just don't know as I don't have any experience with it.
I'm also incorporating some treshold and 5k pace intervals so I'm asking more about the aerobic/subtreshold part of training.
For those interested in the topic, here's a reference on the sub-treshold runs (Healthy Intelligent Training, K. Livingstone, p. 84):
Certain days were designated as higher aerobic effort days. For instance, on Mondays
and Fridays, 10 mile (16 kilometer) “steady state” efforts were to be run at a good
effort, which at the start of the “buildup” might mean runs of 65 minutes on Monday
and 62 minutes on Friday for Magee. By the end of 8 weeks, these steady state runs
were covered in a natural progression at 58 minutes and 55 minutes respectively.
Nowadays we’d call these runs sub-threshold tempo runs, or marathon-pace medium
distance runs.
On those days that didn’t have a longer run, it was very common to supplement with
a very easy morning run of half an hour to an hour. Some athletes ran twice a day on
every day except Sunday, with excellent results.
Great New Zealand athletes, such as Quax and Rod Dixon, also employed similar runs,
and both confirmed with Barry Magee in recent years that they would end up covering
these “keystone” runs at closer to 52 minutes by the end of the build up phase because
they were capable of faster high-aerobic efforts. This was solid training, not racing,
and definitely not a threshold run.
Lydiard devised an “effort” system that would accurately describe the level of effort
required for any scheduled run. He expressed levels of perceived exertion by simple
fractions. A steady long run or general aerobic run could be described as 1/4 effort:a hard time trial during final race preparations would be 7/8 effort. A strong run for an
hour at 3/4 effort during the aerobic base would be equivalent to a run just below the
anaerobic threshold, or marathon pace.
Many North American and European runners who purport to train on the Lydiard
system mistakenly run their effort runs a little too hard.
The idea is always to push up an energy system from below.
The safest and most effective pace to push up the aerobic ceiling, and therefore the
anaerobic threshold with it, and therefore increase the time we can hold our VO2 max
at, is under threshold: strong “3/4 effort” runs of about an hour, at about 90-95% of
anaerobic threshold speed- or, really, “marathon pace,” are the best.
“Marathon training” does not only apply to distances run – it also very much refers
to aerobic effort levels run.
In theory the repeats should get you more miles at MP at the same overall effort because of the rest in between i.e. 4x3miles repeats vs 10 miles steady state @ MP. I've tried just about every scheme out there and find that doing half my long run at MP works best and is the simplest logistically.
ELTON'S PORTABLE JOHN wrote:
In theory the repeats should get you more miles at MP at the same overall effort because of the rest in between i.e. 4x3miles repeats vs 10 miles steady state @ MP. I've tried just about every scheme out there and find that doing half my long run at MP works best and is the simplest logistically.
Yes that's a big advantage imo. Are you doing these steady state or intervals?
Both have their place. If you break it up, it might give you the chance to practice MP later into your LR. Maybe you build to one session like 20-22 w./ 10 @ GMP from 6-16 and then another session is 8-10 x 1 @ M, 1 E in a 20-22 miler w./ a 2-3 mile warm up & a 2-3 mile c/d. The latter gives you a chance to hit some faster miles a touch later in the run.