I am a senior and this is my second year of running. I average 30-35 miles per week. My prs are 55, 2:05, 4:40 and 17:35(XC). Today in practice I did 600m @ goal pace, 100m recovery, and all out 200,x2, with 15 minutes rest between sets. We had 20 mph winds so it was a little slower than it should have been. The first 600 was 1:31 and the next was 1:34. I have around a month until state, how likely is it that I dip under 2, and what should I do to get there? Thanks
Your numbers suggest that you should be able to do that right now. But you are not. The obstacle is probably not your fitness or ability. It is likely something related to either form or your decisions during the race. How do you position and pace yourself in the pack? How do you handle it when someone cuts you off?
You are probably right about the strategy part. I have only raced 2 800s this year, neither were very fast, and I pretty much just sit behind the leaders until 200 to go and then I kick. My splits in the last race were 59 and 1:06, so next time I think I’ll try to pull away at the 400 and just gun it instead of waiting behind the leaders and hurting my time. Thank you for the insight.
Anybody else want to weigh in on this? Experienced coaches/athletes?
Suggestion is 3 x [500m @ 800m pace, 3 min rest, 300m @ faster than 800m pace] rest 5 min.
TL;DR bad idea
For context - 3 x 400m @ 800m pace r4 is a tough predictor workout (1200m volume)
4 x 400m r5 is for advanced athletes with sufficient mileage under their belt, and plenty of hard workouts building up to this session.
And btw - 3 x 800m @ 1500/mile pace (2400m volume) is the equivalently difficult workout for milers. As far as I know, nobody is attempting 4 x 800m at true mile pace.
IMHO the suggestion of 2400m volume (with 500/300m repeats) at -- or faster than -- 800m pace is either simply undoable, or a recipe for disaster/injury/burnout.
As far as I understand it (I'm no expert, correct me if I am wrong), for 99%+ of athletes, the only reasonable way to do 2400m of volume at 800m pace is something like 3 x (4 x 200m r1) r3. Which is an entirely different workout vs 400m or 500m repeats.
[OK, just to be complete here, you can do 2400-3200m volume at 800m pace with something like 3-4 x (8 x 100m r1) r3 but that is an extensive tempo long-sprinter type session, and it is even more different]
Probably near impossible to go sub-2 with 55 speed. OP says his 400m PR is 55. But I'd bet he actually is a 53-54 guy, based off his 600m simulation session.
OP said he just did a standard peaking 'simulation' session of "600m @ goal pace, 100m recovery, and all out 200,x2, with 15 minutes rest between sets". Despite windy conditions, he did well for a 2:05 guy -- 1:31 and 1:34. Well done, OP! I'd say that indicates a 2:03 right now.
OP- I'd suggest do that 600m sim workout again, weekly. IMO it is important to NOT add volume as with the suggested 500/300 session, but get faster at this same session. Throw in a weekly 400m and 4x4 leg, plus a 3 x 4 x 200m session weekly, and you should start getting those 600's down to 1:28-1:29 and then you're golden.
For the 600m sims, go out a bit aggessively. The same way you should in an 800m race. Run 58 then hang on. For the 200, sprint hard and try to accelerate the whole way. It should feel impossible. If you want to run 800m, you gotta do it anyway.
You are probably right about the strategy part. I have only raced 2 800s this year, neither were very fast, and I pretty much just sit behind the leaders until 200 to go and then I kick. My splits in the last race were 59 and 1:06, so next time I think I’ll try to pull away at the 400 and just gun it instead of waiting behind the leaders and hurting my time. Thank you for the insight.
That’s a great race strategy for 800m. Only problem is that as you’ve noticed at the smaller track meets where you can win with a 2:05 the sit and kick strategy will let you win, but if you need to gun a 26 in order to break 2:00 that’s absolutely not happening unless you’re already in like 1:53 shape.
Once you can get in a race where your competition goes out in 57-58 that race strategy will work well for you. Let them eat up the wind and get tired for 500m, and I like making my move on the back straight, as trying to sprint past people on a curve with the lactic starting to take over is tough. Be ready for that last 150m to not so much be a kick but just trying to survive better than everyone else.
You definitely have a shot at sub 2:00. If you can lace up and drop a 1:31 in a workout your race adrenaline and die hard mental state should take care of that extra 28 second 200m somewhere in there. It’s going to be hard though, you’ve barely got the fitness to break two so you’ll need to execute it perfectly, but the good news is that you have the fitness.
Anybody else want to weigh in on this? Experienced coaches/athletes?
Suggestion is 3 x [500m @ 800m pace, 3 min rest, 300m @ faster than 800m pace] rest 5 min.
TL;DR bad idea
For context - 3 x 400m @ 800m pace r4 is a tough predictor workout (1200m volume)
4 x 400m r5 is for advanced athletes with sufficient mileage under their belt, and plenty of hard workouts building up to this session.
And btw - 3 x 800m @ 1500/mile pace (2400m volume) is the equivalently difficult workout for milers. As far as I know, nobody is attempting 4 x 800m at true mile pace.
IMHO the suggestion of 2400m volume (with 500/300m repeats) at -- or faster than -- 800m pace is either simply undoable, or a recipe for disaster/injury/burnout.
As far as I understand it (I'm no expert, correct me if I am wrong), for 99%+ of athletes, the only reasonable way to do 2400m of volume at 800m pace is something like 3 x (4 x 200m r1) r3. Which is an entirely different workout vs 400m or 500m repeats.
[OK, just to be complete here, you can do 2400-3200m volume at 800m pace with something like 3-4 x (8 x 100m r1) r3 but that is an extensive tempo long-sprinter type session, and it is even more different]
Probably near impossible to go sub-2 with 55 speed. OP says his 400m PR is 55. But I'd bet he actually is a 53-54 guy, based off his 600m simulation session.
OP said he just did a standard peaking 'simulation' session of "600m @ goal pace, 100m recovery, and all out 200,x2, with 15 minutes rest between sets". Despite windy conditions, he did well for a 2:05 guy -- 1:31 and 1:34. Well done, OP! I'd say that indicates a 2:03 right now.
OP- I'd suggest do that 600m sim workout again, weekly. IMO it is important to NOT add volume as with the suggested 500/300 session, but get faster at this same session. Throw in a weekly 400m and 4x4 leg, plus a 3 x 4 x 200m session weekly, and you should start getting those 600's down to 1:28-1:29 and then you're golden.
For the 600m sims, go out a bit aggessively. The same way you should in an 800m race. Run 58 then hang on. For the 200, sprint hard and try to accelerate the whole way. It should feel impossible. If you want to run 800m, you gotta do it anyway.
Best luck. Have fun!
OP here, You seem incredibly knowledgeable, thank you for spending the time to write that out. I’ll show this response to my coach and hope she lets me follow your advice. I should be running an 800 next week, so I will post the time I get then. Thanks.
You stated that your 400 Pr is 55. How often have you raced the 400?
I ran the 4x4 twice indoor, splits were like 58 and 57, two weeks ago I split a 54 outdoor, and last Friday a ran a 55 open. I like running it but I probably won’t be able to fit in any more opens this year. I might get to do a 4x4 every over meet or so.
You are probably right about the strategy part. I have only raced 2 800s this year, neither were very fast, and I pretty much just sit behind the leaders until 200 to go and then I kick. My splits in the last race were 59 and 1:06, so next time I think I’ll try to pull away at the 400 and just gun it instead of waiting behind the leaders and hurting my time. Thank you for the insight.
That’s a great race strategy for 800m. Only problem is that as you’ve noticed at the smaller track meets where you can win with a 2:05 the sit and kick strategy will let you win, but if you need to gun a 26 in order to break 2:00 that’s absolutely not happening unless you’re already in like 1:53 shape.
Once you can get in a race where your competition goes out in 57-58 that race strategy will work well for you. Let them eat up the wind and get tired for 500m, and I like making my move on the back straight, as trying to sprint past people on a curve with the lactic starting to take over is tough. Be ready for that last 150m to not so much be a kick but just trying to survive better than everyone else.
You definitely have a shot at sub 2:00. If you can lace up and drop a 1:31 in a workout your race adrenaline and die hard mental state should take care of that extra 28 second 200m somewhere in there. It’s going to be hard though, you’ve barely got the fitness to break two so you’ll need to execute it perfectly, but the good news is that you have the fitness.
This is highly reassuring. I have never posted on letsrun before, so it’s amazing to see how helpful everybody here is. Going with 300 left is definitely smart to avoid going out on the curves, I think I’ll try that in my next race. Thanks a ton.
You stated that your 400 Pr is 55. How often have you raced the 400?
I ran the 4x4 twice indoor, splits were like 58 and 57, two weeks ago I split a 54 outdoor, and last Friday a ran a 55 open. I like running it but I probably won’t be able to fit in any more opens this year. I might get to do a 4x4 every over meet or so.
Hey OP, thanks -- lots of folks on here know more than I do and I'm sure they'll pipe up & correct me if I suggest something way off.
One thing you need to improve is speed reserve. It will be tough to average sub-60 if your max speed is 54-55. That's why I suggested more 400m and 4x4 races, I figured that would be a natural way to let it develop over the next few weeks.
But with few opportunities to race 400m, another way to work on late season speed reserve is to dedicate a weekly workout day to 4 x 150m with full 5-10 min rest. Smooth unforced accel on the curve and max effort down the straight. You can then do tons of drills and plyos for the day.
Or - if the week doesn't have room for that -- if your ONLY event at a meet is the 800, you can wait 1-2 hours and then do 4 x 100m accelerations in spikes, every 25m faster than the previous, the last one at absolute top speed.
In case this is a new term, speed reserve essentially means the difference between your pace and your max speed. If I can run 200m in 27 sec, then a 29 sec pace feels pretty quick and no matter how aerobically fit or strong I am, I can't maintain it for 2 laps because it is too close to my max speed.
But if I can run 200m in 23 sec, or 400m in 50 flat, then a 29 sec pace feels relaxed and easy, so then 4 laps at 29 sec is pretty much a matter of aerobic fitness and strength.
I ran the 4x4 twice indoor, splits were like 58 and 57, two weeks ago I split a 54 outdoor, and last Friday a ran a 55 open. I like running it but I probably won’t be able to fit in any more opens this year. I might get to do a 4x4 every over meet or so.
Hey OP, thanks -- lots of folks on here know more than I do and I'm sure they'll pipe up & correct me if I suggest something way off.
One thing you need to improve is speed reserve. It will be tough to average sub-60 if your max speed is 54-55. That's why I suggested more 400m and 4x4 races, I figured that would be a natural way to let it develop over the next few weeks.
But with few opportunities to race 400m, another way to work on late season speed reserve is to dedicate a weekly workout day to 4 x 150m with full 5-10 min rest. Smooth unforced accel on the curve and max effort down the straight. You can then do tons of drills and plyos for the day.
Or - if the week doesn't have room for that -- if your ONLY event at a meet is the 800, you can wait 1-2 hours and then do 4 x 100m accelerations in spikes, every 25m faster than the previous, the last one at absolute top speed.
In case this is a new term, speed reserve essentially means the difference between your pace and your max speed. If I can run 200m in 27 sec, then a 29 sec pace feels pretty quick and no matter how aerobically fit or strong I am, I can't maintain it for 2 laps because it is too close to my max speed.
But if I can run 200m in 23 sec, or 400m in 50 flat, then a 29 sec pace feels relaxed and easy, so then 4 laps at 29 sec is pretty much a matter of aerobic fitness and strength.
I am unfamiliar with speed reserves, but it makes sense. Would it be a good idea to do that 4x150 workout on the same day as an easy run? We usually have two-ish easy days per week, so I could fit it in after one of those. Or would it be better to just do striders/ accelerations on those days so my body can rest a little while still getting in some speed training? Thanks for the response.
I am a senior and this is my second year of running. I average 30-35 miles per week. My prs are 55, 2:05, 4:40 and 17:35(XC). Today in practice I did 600m @ goal pace, 100m recovery, and all out 200,x2, with 15 minutes rest between sets. We had 20 mph winds so it was a little slower than it should have been. The first 600 was 1:31 and the next was 1:34. I have around a month until state, how likely is it that I dip under 2, and what should I do to get there? Thanks
I ran 1:57.5, and I'm not sure I could have done that session. Obviously, I could have done the first set, but I'm not sure I could have done the second, so you've got a lot of strength.
I would practice something like 8x200m with 200m easy jog recovery, at around 28 second pace, with the focus on relaxation. This isn't a hard session, and isn't so much about fitness as it is comfort and relaxation at speed.
For pacing, something like 58/61 would get the job done.
I think you are potentially a lot faster than your current prs, especially since this only your second year.
I ran the 4x4 twice indoor, splits were like 58 and 57, two weeks ago I split a 54 outdoor, and last Friday a ran a 55 open. I like running it but I probably won’t be able to fit in any more opens this year. I might get to do a 4x4 every over meet or so.
Hey OP, thanks -- lots of folks on here know more than I do and I'm sure they'll pipe up & correct me if I suggest something way off.
One thing you need to improve is speed reserve. It will be tough to average sub-60 if your max speed is 54-55. That's why I suggested more 400m and 4x4 races, I figured that would be a natural way to let it develop over the next few weeks.
But with few opportunities to race 400m, another way to work on late season speed reserve is to dedicate a weekly workout day to 4 x 150m with full 5-10 min rest. Smooth unforced accel on the curve and max effort down the straight. You can then do tons of drills and plyos for the day.
Or - if the week doesn't have room for that -- if your ONLY event at a meet is the 800, you can wait 1-2 hours and then do 4 x 100m accelerations in spikes, every 25m faster than the previous, the last one at absolute top speed.
In case this is a new term, speed reserve essentially means the difference between your pace and your max speed. If I can run 200m in 27 sec, then a 29 sec pace feels pretty quick and no matter how aerobically fit or strong I am, I can't maintain it for 2 laps because it is too close to my max speed.
But if I can run 200m in 23 sec, or 400m in 50 flat, then a 29 sec pace feels relaxed and easy, so then 4 laps at 29 sec is pretty much a matter of aerobic fitness and strength.
This is a great post.
I personally think 54 relay speed is enough to get the job done if you have solid endurance, which your workout you mentioned shows you totally do. I’m slightly more speed based and if I’m seeing 53.x for 400m I know I can break 2:00.
I agree, you’ll get the most bang for your buck doing some speed sharpening over the next few weeks. Your workout again shows that your anaerobic endurance is right where you want it, and it might just be a bit of speed/speed endurance needed to get the job done.
I think the perfect recipe for building speed in a middle distance runner is 50, 150, and 300 meter reps all done with a ton of rest. Usually a lap walk or a 2 lap jog is my go to for this type of work.
50m repeats are done with almost exaggerated muscle flexion and form, you don’t want these to feel smooth and fast, you want to feel like you’re really slamming the ground with each step and throwing punches at the air like it stole your lunch money. Think of how it feels when you’re tired and trying to out kick someone, the tightness and fury of it. That’s how you do these 50s but with plenty of energy in the tank and therefor not the pain that comes with it.
150s are just as sub 8 mile described it, you should build into the pace for 50 meters and then rip that 100m, this time looking for fast feet and a smooth arm swing.
300s have a hard first 50, float for 200m, and then put the pedal to the medal for the last 50. If you do it right you’ll feel your body trying to hit the breaks the last 50-75 meters or so, it shouldn’t hurt, but feels like if you went 100m more you’d be really hurting.
You only want to do 1-2 of those 300s in a workout, with the 150s I’d do 4-6, and with the 50s I’d do 6-8.
the secret race strat for the 800m that no one talks about is coast the first 200m (mid to back pack). hit that next 400m (200-600m) hard this mentally being the main focus of the race. and then just close with what ya got left.
28-55-27. splits got my first big breakthrough in the event. the knowledge was shared to be by another 1:50 guy.