Ritz on Supershoes: Pros are stronger & more effecient-less gains vs college & HSrs. So stiffer carbon plates for pros?

Makes sense. I've only run 4:15 and I think supershoes help by about 5-10 seconds per mile if I'm running a tempo, but I have a friend who's in college in the 3:59-4:01 range (full) and he thinks they only help by about 2-3 seconds.

I think their main benefit is making your legs not feel like they're shot the next day

The benefit of supershoes is capturing the power you output in the foam and helping you convert that power to speed. Most elites are already very good at translating their power into speed so they don't get much help. It is hard to improve on something like this

The foam and plates are designed for energy return, thus the more force you exert the greater the benefit the shoes provide. So he's wrong, this is simple physics.

The biggest benefit is that they can train harder with the shoes than athletes ever had been able to. The workout he designed with a sub 4 mile to start probably would have injured someone like Solinsky or Kennedy. So even if you accept his lowball number of 5-6 seconds benefit over a 5k, you'd have to add an additional 8-12 seconds for the training benefits.

Woody for example does not have good form. If it weren't for these shoes, he'd never be able to train at this level of volume and intensity without constant injuries.

Shoes will keep evolving over the next few years and then another allowable parameter will be passed and developed. Going forward this will be never ending. Athletes will need the latest shoes to compete at the highest level whether it be grade or world. As with all technology the older model will be not as good but still competitive at a cheaper price. Without the best shoes the athlete will compete at a disadvantage. Shoe companies are driving the sport now more then ever.

Well, I agree that it is simple physics, but the question is - can the plates or foam be fine tuned to give a better return of energy for these highest-level performers.

One factor that may contribute to why they may not get as as much benefit from the supershoes/superspikes as the slightly lower-level performers is because the high level athletes need a more robust, or stiffer carbon-fiber plate to better catapult themselves, much like a stronger pole-vaulter gets more energy return from a stiffer pole to maximize the elevation of the jump. A more flexible pole may be ideal for a somewhat weaker pole-vaulter to get their ideal energy return but for the stronger vaulter, it is too flexible for them to get the energy return they would get with a stiffer pole which has the capacity to capture their higher energy input, store and provide higher energy return than the more flexible pole that works more ideally for the weaker vaulter who doesn't have the energy input required to transfer it effectively to the stiffer pole.

Woody does not have bad form, as evidenced by running 12:51 -- and you can't tell if someone has good form by eye, anyway. I also don't think running injuries are any less common than before these shoes, but it'd be interesting for someone to actually look into this.

Additionally - what scientific research supports the fact that "bad form" leads directly to more injuries? What is "bad form"? Something that doesn't look like your preconceived notion of what a runner looks like?

Overuse injuries are often a result of an inappropriate training load for that individual. There isn't a scientific consensus that injuries rates are directly related to "form" and to indicate that a person would be injured more often if they didn't have a particular shoe is a logical leap, to say the least.

Couple points:
a) I do think the shoes help reduce the possibility of injury from hard training
b) they also do promote faster recovery from racing it seems

But I still think the biggest effect of the supershoes/superspikes remains the energy return in racing. I feel like a) and b) are more about adding depth, but at the high end the top athletes will only run so fast based on those training/recovery benefits. A lot of the best athletes with the best effiency/mechanics did fine in a) and b) pre-Super Shoes. Still, taking Bekele for example there’s no question that in Berlin 2019 he benefitted from the energy return of Supershoes.

Top 100 US lists for 2021 and 2022 are far and above anything US distance running has ever seen. Collegiate times even more so. To put it into perspect, 2022 indoor men's 5000m top 100 times are average 20 seconds faster than they've ever been (most of those run at BU where I think the shoes have even more of an effect). This also holds true for outdoor times for 3,000 on up. For example, 2022 US men's 10,000m top 100 average was 28:28. The next fastest year (going back to 2012 and not counting 2021 - which was second fastest and only a few seconds slower than '22) was 2019 at 28:49. Over 20 seconds faster! There are years when it averaged over 30 seconds faster for US men's 10,000m.

On the world level it wasn't as much. For 3,000 - 10,000 2021 and 2022 were either #1 or #2 fastest years for both men's and women's top 100 for every distance except one (forget which distance off the top of my head - I think men's 5,000m and in that case it was the 3rd fastest ever). While '21 and '22 seasons were the fastest ever, it wasn't by much. I think average for 5000m it was 5 seconds (where the US average was ~15 seconds for outdoor 5,000m).

There is no doubt that the shoes have had a tremendous effect on all US times. Anyone who doubts this can go to world wide athletics and average top 100 US times going all the way back to 2000. As soon as the shoes were introduced US times dropped... a lot.

Though I suspect if you looked at road racing (5K-Marathon) and indoor 3ks for international athletes you’d see more of the effect. Distance running is more diluted internationally, but make no mistake the athletes are running faster in terms of sub-7:35 3ks indoors, sub-27 10KM road races, sub-60 halves and sub-2:05 fulls. If there was a Sound Running “The Ten” for East Africans we’d see some really quick times. Even with a less vibrant outdoor circuit the depth of sub 13:10 Kenyans (for example) is ratcheting up.

What the f*ck is this skill of "generating power into speed" and why do you only learn to do it after you graduate from college?

"We're doing stuff we though we'd be doing four years from now".

And you will not repeat this performances on any track other than BU in the next 4 years guaranteed. Give me a break.

This. And apparently Nuguse developed it in just 7-8 months!

Sub 12:50 is the new sub 13:00 for men in the 5k with the super shoes.

There's a reason why they are called " Super" shoes and they are rewriting the record books!

Does anyone have thoughts on this hypothosis?

Any thoughts on this hypothosis

So Ritz was an athlete under a coach many suspect to be one of the dirtiest ever in the sport. He then goes out on his own to coach himself with very limited results. He even starts coaching Parker Stinson with very little results. He then is named coach of team with what seems to be a big budget and all fo a sudden he is a super coach. Just wondering what he learned from when he was part of NOP and is he using them now?