True or False, Salazar said

well I guess most of the Japanese marathoners are out as are Ronaldo Da Costa (former world record holder), josiah thugwane (olympic champ), and many others. Nike should have spent some money on a good coach.

13:20 5k speed is not necessary for the marathon.

i can't believe he recited that hogwash...seriously?

where did that passage come from anyway?

that's pretty much telling 99% of American Marathoners to screw off and consider doing something else with their time.

i'd be interested in seeing the full context of the quotation. if you're asking a question of true or false however, my response is "false."

interesting stuff nonetheless.

- ryan

Well, one good rule of thumb is that your marathon time will be your mile pace at 10k + 30 secs/mile.

So, 28/10k equals 4.30m/m. Add 30 secs for 5.00m/m and you get a 2:11 marathon.

5k pace is approx 10k pace minus 12-15 secs mile (let's say 12 secs for top guys). So 13.20/5k pace = 4.18m/m.

Add 12 secs for 10k pace, gets you 4.30m/m. Add another 30 secs for marathon pace gets you 5.00m/m and we're back at 2.11 marathon time.

So, if Al Sal said that with these times you "cannot run comfortably at world class marathon pace" and if he defines "world class" as sub-2.10 (or faster), then he's right.

(Of course it is possible to run 10k pace + 25 secs/mile for the marathon. Which would mean you could run a good marathon off a slower 10k time, but that is more the exception, rather than the rule. As you can see, Geb's 26.22/10k (4.15m/m) and his 2:06/Mar (4.48m/m) conforms pretty much to the rule. This 25-30 sec rule will actually be closer to the former for you if you do not have a rocket-fast 10k time.)

Now if you personally define "world class" as sub-2.20 or sub-2.15 or sub-2.12, then it just shows his definition is more strict than yours (and probably more accurate. I don't think Geb or Tergat or KK were worried about some 2.12 dude in London. Meaning no disrespect here in any way to any 2.10-2.20 runners anywhere).

Either way, what Salazar is allegedly saying is not "hogwash". Although it might be a rather harsh way of stating the truth.

I have no idea if he said this or not. But even if he didn't say it, he would probably agree with it.

Read it here on letsrun, it was front page yesterday

Anyone know what KKs PRs for 10k and 5k are? I'd be interested to see if he fits the formula.

Salazar's opinion may be harsh and a few anomalies (da Costa, the Japanese) may exist but why are you guys getting so upset about this? Chill out and just go back to telling fat people and Gallowalkers why they have no business running marathons.

Remember, there are elite athletes and there are the rest of us. You know which group you belong to.

Here you go, work your math. KK's numbers.

ROAD RACES:

5 KM 13:24 Harvard Pilgrim Downtown 5KM RI September 14,1997

4 Mile 17:30 Steamboat Classic. Peoria, IL June 20,1998

1O KM 27:47 Peachtree Road Race. Atlanta. GA July 4 1998

15 KM 42:57 Utica Boilermaker. Utica, NY. July 1998.

20 KM 57:36* New Haven Road Race, New Haven, CT September, 1998

21 KM 1:00:27 Philadelphia Distance Run. Philadelphia PA. September 1997

Marathon 2:05:38WR AR London Marathon April 14, 2002

I just followed the WIRED link (in another thread) which talks about the Nike "high-altitude" house and Salazar's belief in science. Interesting. And with the right team interpreting the results and setting the training (maybe not Salazar), I believe it will work.

In the article he talks of a 27.40/10k (4.27m/m) and a 2.08 marathon (4.53m/m) as if one equals another. Note these are +26secs/mile difference. He also suggests Dan Browne might not be far off after a 27.47/10k breakthrough.

Even I would like to see KK's 10k/mar diff. I would expect his to be on the low end of 25-30 since he was never a stellar 10k runner. A +25-sec diff would give him a 10k of around 27.10.

Of course you don't have to have done the 10k time predicted by your marathon time, just be capable of it. You may be someone who runs and trains only for marathons and never again gives the 10k a solid go (and I don't mean you run one off of marathon training).

A number of elite runners remark like Steve Jones, that (after a top marathon) they intend to go back to the track (but never do).

I recall one quote of his (after his Chicago 2.08 WR) saying, "there's still quite a bit to come off the 5k and the 10k". And, like many marathoners, he found there was no going back. Marathoners are either recovering from the last one, or preparing for the next one. And there's not too much time in between that for anything else.

So KK's 10k time may be way out of range simply because he has not run one when in top 10k shape since his marathon breakthrough. (Don't worry, I'm not covering my ass here! :) I'm still interested to see his 10k/mar diff.

More notes: women seem to find this +25-30sec diff rule easier than men. It's an energy thing (they burn fat and spare glycogen better than men). In fact some men in the 2.30-3.00hr range tend to run more like +35 secs diff when women with similar 10k times can still manage sub-+30 diff.

K.K. stated that he does 17 to 22 milers at marathon race

pace, 4:46 per mile. He then takes days off with no running

for a recovery. How many other people in the world train

this way? Sub 28 10k speed may be relevant for a

standard training model.

In the context, Salazar is talking about competing at the highest level. In the spirit of what he was saying, his meaning is that one needs to be DANG close to running as fast as their ever going to run in the 5K and 10K before thinking about running the marathon.

This coincides with the ongoing discussion we have had regarding Galloway, Rojo, Hendererson, et al. Salazar is saying you learn how to run fast and short before you learn to run fast and far. Obviously, there is going to be individual discernment as to what degree one learns to run fast, how long this should take, etc. But, by and large, I agree with him.

Its funny that Salazar would say that. Did he forget that the guy who probably pushed him the hardest in a marathon had a pr which is almost 2 minutes slower than his.

What's Catherine Ndereba's 5000m PR? 15:09? Yeah, she should stick to something different than marathons.

What are Salazar's PR's? Did he follow this model or is he speaking out of his ass?

Salazar ran around 13:11 and 27:28, if memory serves. He ran the 27:28 the same week as his narrow win in Boston over Beardsley.

As regard Khannouci, anyone who thinks that he can't run under 27 minutes for 10k should not be allowed to operate heavy machinery.

KK's 10k road time (at 27.47) seems at +19 secs to be significantly better than the 25-30 model. But I would like to offer one proviso: this is not a track time, and track times are always faster than road times. You must use a track time for the comparison (and least that's what I've been doing up till now, and it works pretty good).

For example Geb's 26.22 above was on the track, he never ran anything like that kind of time on the road. So there must be some time to come off of KK"s 27.47.

But half a minute? (to get him to 27.10 and a diff of 25 secs), I don't know, but certainly enough to get him down to a 10k/mar diff of +22 secs, which nevertheless still puts him on the exceptional side of the equation. Which he truly must be as a WR holder for the distance.

A note to Perspective: it is not necessary to be able to run the 5k/10k/mar times of the model concurrently. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that if you are in 5k/10k PR shape, you are almost definitley NOT in marathon PR shape (even though you may run one). So it is not a good guide to readiness for a good marathon to try and pop a 5k PR just to see where you are. You should not/may not be able to do it. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Jersey_guy, I have already stated that women are different. Take any guy and girl you want who run equivalent times for 10k and check their marathon times. Assuming they both train seriously, sometimes the girl can beat the guy by 5 mins over 26.2 miles! Frustrating!

Look at Paula Radcliffe; never gone sub-30 and can run 2.18 on her debut. (+21diff) And that's a track 10k time. Not too many guys can pop those kind of numbers.

Good stuff..... So, when should Ritz move up?

Jack Foster ran 2:11:18 at age 41 with a mile PR of 4:19, 5k of 13:56, and 10k of 28:47. The marathon and 5k/10k are worlds apart. In the time it takes you to work down your 5k/10k you could be getting marathon experience, which is a must. By the time you get the 5k/10k times your marathon days will be gone (see TW). Ditto for moving up to any distance (see BK). BK was a low 27:00 10k guy and TW was a 2:10 marathoner...but each missed their respective boats. Don't let time pass you by

Alan

i agree with salazar. Any guy who has run under 2:10, if then trained for the 5k, could probably run close to 13:20. I dont think Bob Kemp. ever ran it, but i bet he could have.

However, it would'nt surprise me if a 13:30 guy still ran sub 2:10.

They do go back to the track if they were good at it. Lopes and Salazar both dropped their track times after proving that they were best at the Marathon. Craig Virgin also went back after running under 2:11 (but didn't really get better).