Best cookie-cutter sub 2:40 marathon plan

EPO + 90 mpw

I thought they're not that hard until I realized they're frigging "1T"(not 1E) between those M efforts. Yeah, that's a really tough workout for someone of your ability, especially if you train by yourself.

I have never bothered even trying those mixed M/T workouts. What's most insane is that his hardest workouts are the first few of the cycle, and then they get easier. I never understood that. He even has some where it's 16 miles of M/T work continuously. I don't know who can run that at all in a cycle, let alone at the start. 16 @ straight MP is almost too difficult in and of itself.

Having said that, I've run sub 2:40 on his 71-85 MPW plan with modifications (only straight MP runs, and make the difficulty more progressive than his odd regressive plan). As long as you take all your E days easier than he says, you can complete his workouts (e.g. general easy days MP+20% and recovery days at MP+30% or slower). If you try to run his prescribed easy run pace on all E days you will run yourself into the ground.

Thanks, that's helpful. Did you modify the 2Q plan or was it the final 18 week or 4/5 week cycle one? What you say makes sense, but I kinda feel like if I'm making such heavy modifications to a plan, maybe it's defeating the purpose and better to look elsewhere entirely.

Any thoughts/experience with pfitzinger plan?

The Magic JS and his Dancan system is by far the very best.

Sorry, Dancan? Not sure if this is meant to be a serious comment but no idea what you’re referring to

Pfitz’s 100 mile plan will get you there, no question. Nothing fancy in it, just week in and week out with solid training.

In my experience, Daniel’s marathon plans are needlessly complicated. You have to bring a cheat sheet (or program your watch) to get remember the structure of half the workouts! I’m sure it can work, but I don’t think it’s necessary at all for the marathon.

Agreed, Daniels is too fancy (and difficult)!

I'm leaning toward Pfitz but my main concern is it really looks like most weeks have 1 true quality session (5-ish mile tempo early on then Vo2 reps later in the training block). Also seems weird that these are later rather than early in the cycle. Any thoughts/experiences on these things?

I think Pfitz is the best for what you're looking for. Daniels can be a bit intense. More balance with Pfitz. Good mileage. Threshold workouts. Medium long runs. Tempo at GMP spread throughout your build in your long runs.

I will say that 2:43 is pretty dang solid for not breaking 5:00 and 17:00. Honestly maybe think about scrapping a fall marathon and going all in on 5k/10k training. A winter half in ~1:16-17 would be good too.

I did the Pfitz 12/70 plan last spring and ran a 2:48. I'm a decade older than you and a bit slower at shorter distances.

I loved the plan. It's true on paper it sometimes looks like you do one tempo or one track workout a week. But the way you're supposed to do those long runs and medium long runs make them very workout like. A lot of those MLRs come the day after a tempo or track session. Once those started kicking in (and another week when I had 13 and 15 milers back to back just days after a long run with MP), I really started to understand the program.

You gain a ton of strength. I ran a solid negative split in my race. And when I got to 20 miles, I realized I had never felt stronger on a 20 mile run ever.

The vo2 in the latter weeks is odd. Definitely more old school in that speed/sharpening idea rather than moving towards specificity. I actually did mine closer to 10k pace than 5. But they felt great. And at that point you're still doing lots of long, steady work. So they may not be ideal in terms of today's training, but it's still a great program imo. And a lot of people have run great races on it.

Pfitz 18/70 got me to my first <2:45 marathon (2:42). And I even slightly modified it to make it more like Pftiz 18/65 by taking Friday off, and replacing the weak sauce 5-mile Saturday run with the Friday run. Mostly because, as a working man, I dont f*cking have time to do 12-13 miles on a Friday.

Thanks for the great response, this was exactly the kind of input I was hoping for!

This is a great idea, I'm committed to doing the Houston full in January but signed up for a 10K and some shorter stuff and hope to transition to working on speed after the marathon base!

I am the same age as you and I have a 2:45 marathon PB. For my last marathon attempt I got super unlucky with the weather on race day (Newport News, VA earlier this year) and DNF'd at mile 17. I did my own thing when it came to structuring training and I felt pretty strong going into the race, but I think for my next marathon I would like to follow a more structured plan. I still have pretty decent speed and I feel like I would benefit more from longer tempos than I would from a bunch of intervals like most plans call for.

I am looking at running either Houston or Phoenix marathon early 2023 so I need to decide on a plan soon.