I'm thinking of doing double threshold days for my summer training, based off the Norwegian model (15:40 5k, aiming for <15). But I have a couple of questions about it.
1. Should I run them at tempo or threshold pace? Using Tinman's calculator tempo is 5:53-5:45 and threshold is 5:36-5:28. I currently do my tempoes around 5:30 if that's relevant.
2. Could I sprinkle a CV workout for the 2nd one to replace the 10x1000? I was thinking doing 8x800 faster on occasion.
your best paces are probably tinmans tempo and easy tempo. threshold is too fast. CV is way too fast for a double workout. Look at how slow jakob is running for a guy of his ability. also read marius bakken
It's a blood lactate threshold, not a pace. Many people do it by feeling or talk test. You should never feel trashed before during or after. Next day easy run should feel okay.
Why do you want to do double threshold workouts?
What is your highest volume threshold day at the moment?
Realistically, do you have time for a double threshold and do you have the time to recover?
Double threshold workouts are very popular at the moment but there are a lot of other ways to improve without doing this type of work and it can lead to injury if you’re not ready for them yet.
You want to go on the slower end. You want to be closer to 3.0 then 4.0 mmol. Tempo run in the morning and cruise intervals more or less in the afternoon. So you may go 4mi tempo in the morning and 4xmile in the afternoon/evening. Make sure your running at your current estimated pace not necessarily off PR pace. Probably going to want two easy days to follow after this workout. Make sure you take at least a week off before starting summer training and build your mileage up first before doing these kind of workouts.
Should only need 1 easy day after double lactate threshold day. If you need more than that, then you went too hard.
You probably want to do the morning at easy tempo to tempo and the afternoon at threshold for Ks and CV for 400s (or 800 and 300 because that'll take almost 3 min and 1 min, the length of the ingebrigtsen intervals).
Listen to this podcast, this guy's grandpa helped coach Marius Bakken (which is where Jakob's family got their training), placed top 10 in the 1972 5k, and coaches him using double threshold and they will probably answer a lot of your questions.
I've typically not trained enough in summer because I found it very challenging to run 5k and even 10k-ish (Tinman CV) pace alone and in the heat. When practice began for me (mid Aug.) I'd have better workouts and race myself into shape, but that meant I'd run slow until early to mid Oct. I think that if I build a better aerobic base through double threshold days I'll be more competitive earlier and also faster down the line.
thanks for this, I was thinking something very similar. Continuous tempo in the morning, and tempo intervals in the afternoon. I'll probably start at 3/3 and increase it from there, possibly to 4/5 or 4/6.
The idea of double threshold is to max out the amount of threshold running you’re doing… so unless you’re already doing tempos twice a week and doing, I don’t know, 10k worth each session, then you’re making too much of a jump. Maybe a good idea would be, during base at least, to just cut out the 400 reps or 5k pace Ks or whatever else and just focus on a sustained tempo one day and cruise intervals another.
double threshold days1 wrote:
I've typically not trained enough in summer because I found it very challenging to run 5k and even 10k-ish (Tinman CV) pace alone and in the heat. When practice began for me (mid Aug.) I'd have better workouts and race myself into shape, but that meant I'd run slow until early to mid Oct. I think that if I build a better aerobic base through double threshold days I'll be more competitive earlier and also faster down the line.
How much threshold are you doing now? What is your current mileage? There are likely many other ways to become “trained enough” over the summer. Starting with increasing mileage a bit and increasing the threshold and tempo volume without doing double threshold days. If you’re young, I would especially caution against double threshold because you’re more likely to do it way too fast. Slow down. Train where you’re at. Try something else before doing double thresholds.
Run 6' intervals at tempo pace, 3' intervals at threshold pace, 60" intervals at 10k.
I wouldn't swap threshold for CV in your summer base. The whole point of the regular double threshold work is to go all-in on volume. There is plenty of time to get sharper later. Besides, I take it you'll be including regular hill climbs to push some lactate anyhow.
Last summer, averaging 75-80mi/wk, I was running 4x6', 8x3' or 12-16x60" (kept running the shorter intervals at 5k or faster and had to cut the volume). I had misread the 6' intervals as threshold pace off of 2' instead of sub-threshold off of 1', so I would regularly put in 8mi of work at threshold on a day, but even that was sustainable for months on end. Best aerobic base of my life, and the work was never intrinsically difficult--though I had to resist comparing my 60*F double in early June in Chicago with my regular 100*F afternoon sessions back home in July. Balance the feeling of threshold with what your watch is telling you. No one session should feel like something you're proving to yourself.
I disagree with those suggesting slower paces or worried about increasing too much volume. To be honest, I found threshold very sustainable, and I found doing 24' of threshold intervals twice a day to be MUCH easier than doing even a 30' tempo run, especially training solo.
double threshold days wrote:
I'm thinking of doing double threshold days for my summer training, based off the Norwegian model (15:40 5k, aiming for <15). But I have a couple of questions about it.
1. Should I run them at tempo or threshold pace? Using Tinman's calculator tempo is 5:53-5:45 and threshold is 5:36-5:28. I currently do my tempoes around 5:30 if that's relevant.
2. Could I sprinkle a CV workout for the 2nd one to replace the 10x1000? I was thinking doing 8x800 faster on occasion.
So many buzz words
citius5000 wrote:
You want to go on the slower end. You want to be closer to 3.0 then 4.0 mmol. Tempo run in the morning and cruise intervals more or less in the afternoon. So you may go 4mi tempo in the morning and 4xmile in the afternoon/evening. Make sure your running at your current estimated pace not necessarily off PR pace. Probably going to want two easy days to follow after this workout. Make sure you take at least a week off before starting summer training and build your mileage up first before doing these kind of workouts.
This is good advice. Would even take more than 2 easy days after a double threshold. Most runners are good with 2 workouts/week. So do a session like this mid-week & maybe add some quality into your long run & that should be it.
A good intro to something like this is a morning tempo & then broken 400s at roughly the same pace in the evening on short rest. Start with something that gets in more work but isn't gonna wreck you.
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