Agreed. 200-600m was a 72s lap and he still ran 12:57, with a 53.x close while leading 3k+ of the race. I don't believe anyone in history was capable of beating Bekele on this day. Threw in a string of 59/60 second laps and then still closed like it was a tactical race.
Bekele was great, but there was at least one runner in history that could have beaten him that day, and that runner is Daniel Komen.
Man, people love to romanticize Daniel Komen. This is a guy that had about 2 peak years of running, never won an Olympic medal, and only held the 5000 world record for under a year. Watch Haile crush Komen in setting the WR in 12:41 in 1997:
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None can deny that he is the 3000 meter GOAT -- there were some others that I do think could have given his records a scare and probably beaten him in a 3000 race if they focused on it the way he did: El G, Lagat, Jakob. But not many.
But the idea that he holds a candle to Bekele or even Geb over 5000 is silly, particularly in a 5000 like the Beijing race.
Im sorry birdbeard but Komen is PROPERLY rated as one of the greatest. "Doesn't hold a candle to Geb" is simply not accurate as Geb only took his record by fractions of a second. Komen meanwhile has held the 3000 and two mile records for decades and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon. Geb took multiple swings at the two mile and failed.
'04 I agree with but '03 was a 12:52 race and Bekele did a lot of the work to make it that way. The 10,000m a week before with a 12:57 close was just too much to double back from against a fresh Kipchoge.
Bekele was great, but there was at least one runner in history that could have beaten him that day, and that runner is Daniel Komen.
Man, people love to romanticize Daniel Komen. This is a guy that had about 2 peak years of running, never won an Olympic medal, and only held the 5000 world record for under a year. Watch Haile crush Komen in setting the WR in 12:41 in 1997:
None can deny that he is the 3000 meter GOAT -- there were some others that I do think could have given his records a scare and probably beaten him in a 3000 race if they focused on it the way he did: El G, Lagat, Jakob. But not many.
But the idea that he holds a candle to Bekele or even Geb over 5000 is silly, particularly in a 5000 like the Beijing race.
Agree with this. I wouldn't go as far as you--I do believe he "holds a candle" to those two. But there's a weird sort of mysticism that's formed around him, I think because his success was so fleeting. Geb was absolutely dominant at the time, and here comes this random guy who can (sometimes) beat him. That and the 3000m record, which is strong, but imo the weakest of the standard distance records.
Komen was absolutely one of the greats, but his talent wasn't unlimited. And he certainly never had a run like the one under discussion by Bekele.
Im sorry birdbeard but Komen is PROPERLY rated as one of the greatest. "Doesn't hold a candle to Geb" is simply not accurate as Geb only took his record by fractions of a second. Komen meanwhile has held the 3000 and two mile records for decades and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon. Geb took multiple swings at the two mile and failed.
Eh "hold a candle" was hyperbolic but there is a myth of Daniel Komen that does not match reality. He was not on the level of Bekele or Gebrselassie, nor the level of Farah, Cheptegei or others that truly dominated distance running in their time.
The dominance from start to finish. The quality of opponents. The last 5 laps. Look at the power on the backstretch of the last lap. Wowwwwww!
Unmatched in all my years of fandom.
Willing to banter over other’s favorites if you find a worthy challenger, but for my money the guy who won that race on that day is the greatest distance runner of all time and that was his grandest performance.
Amazing performance, but Rudisha in London 2012 was even greater.
In terms of an actual race, I’ll also vote of Kipchoge’s WC win in 2003 and El G’s 1500 win in Athens as the two greatest races I’ve watched in terms of an uncertain finish until the very end against the best competition on the biggest stages.
Yeah I should be more biased to the 800m and Rudishas performance which quite obviously was astounding and one of the great performances in the history of the sport..... but it's not greater than this one from Bekele.
And it's not Rudishas fault, but the event is against him here. By that I mean the 800m obviously is considerably shorter and really there is not a lot that can or did happen other than Rudisha hitting the front and staying there running close to his maximum for 2 laps. There are no real tactics involved, no development of the race - I think when we all saw Rudisha clear in the front after 200m striding out, we knew how the race was unfolding. The huge bonus was the WR which became a possibility when he hit 600m in 1.14.6 - but not a lot of intrigue.
But this race from Bekele is a work of art. It covers all facets of running from the tactical side (positioning, knowing precisely when to make the right move etc) and the physical side (well known and documented even on this thread - 53 last lap to cap off a 4.56.97 final 2000m) and the way he dominates and destroys two other greats and former world champions (including the reigning one at the time in Lagat).
Both races are great for different reasons but it's just the nature of the 5000m that allows for so much more which Bekele masterfully delivers on all fronts.
Im sorry birdbeard but Komen is PROPERLY rated as one of the greatest. "Doesn't hold a candle to Geb" is simply not accurate as Geb only took his record by fractions of a second. Komen meanwhile has held the 3000 and two mile records for decades and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon. Geb took multiple swings at the two mile and failed.
Eh "hold a candle" was hyperbolic but there is a myth of Daniel Komen that does not match reality. He was not on the level of Bekele or Gebrselassie, nor the level of Farah, Cheptegei or others that truly dominated distance running in their time.
You can’t compare them so simply. Yes, Komen is not an all-time great like the 4 men you mentioned (I ranked him #27 on this list from 2020, and even that may be generous: https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10221588 ), but that has everything to do with longevity and lack of Olympic medals, not peak ability. At the time of the following races, you have to say he was on more or less the level of anyone to ever lace them up:
This is possibly one of the greatest races / times ever run in the history of the sport of running. Daniel Komen comes through the first mile at sub-4 pace a...
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Completely exhausts Geb’s inexhaustible kick in a 12:45.1 race (yeah, Geb said he had blisters—it’s up to you how much credence you want to give his excuse):
Add to it that a global gold in the 5,000 had eluded him up to then. He dominated the 2000s at 10,000 but had “only” world bronze and Olympic silver at 5,000 so far. I don’t think he even ran the 5k at the two worlds between Athens and Beijing. After yet another 10,000 gold, the 2008 5k was about proving he could win a title at the shorter distance, so to prove it so emphatically just adds to the greatness of that run. He backed it up with double golds at 2009 worlds too.
Hard not to agree. Such utter dominance in an Olympic final is rare. Eliud's reaction at the end is like an exasperated smile and a shrug "what can you do?" On the women's side, I think Tirunesh Dibaba was equally imposing in the 10000m final in 2012. But neither, IMO, was the GOAT performance.
Women: Almaz Ayana 2016 10000m final was jaw-dropping stuff.
Men: John Ngugi 1988 5000m final was unadulterated cojones.
The dominance from start to finish. The quality of opponents. The last 5 laps. Look at the power on the backstretch of the last lap. Wowwwwww!
Unmatched in all my years of fandom.
Willing to banter over other’s favorites if you find a worthy challenger, but for my money the guy who won that race on that day is the greatest distance runner of all time and that was his grandest performance.
Just to further play devil’s advocate and to demonstrate my recency bias, I think Kipyegon’s win in Tokyo also was equally dominant against a very high class field. Just as you have argued no 5000 runner ever would have beaten Bekele on that day, pretty sure no women’s 1500 runner ever would have beaten Kipyegon.
Add to it that a global gold in the 5,000 had eluded him up to then. He dominated the 2000s at 10,000 but had “only” world bronze and Olympic silver at 5,000 so far. I don’t think he even ran the 5k at the two worlds between Athens and Beijing. After yet another 10,000 gold, the 2008 5k was about proving he could win a title at the shorter distance, so to prove it so emphatically just adds to the greatness of that run. He backed it up with double golds at 2009 worlds too.
Bekele was the WR holder at both distances, so I don’t him see being weaker at 5000m. When he lost to El G and Kipchoge, he had a bad race and/or didn’t run aggressively enough. At the time, I was thinking Sihine should have doubled back and set a hot pace for Bekele.
Bekele was great, but there was at least one runner in history that could have beaten him that day, and that runner is Daniel Komen.
Make that 2 runners in history. Bekele would have been down 6 seconds to Fisher at 3000m and would only have gained 2 seconds over the last 2000.
All the downvotes indicate that the average LRer doesn’t have a sense of humor. Obviously burritos and super shoes should be considered for comparison purposes.
Make that 2 runners in history. Bekele would have been down 6 seconds to Fisher at 3000m and would only have gained 2 seconds over the last 2000.
All the downvotes indicate that the average LRer doesn’t have a sense of humor. Obviously burritos and super shoes should be considered for comparison purposes.
I think most of us realize that was a joke, but it's just plausible enough that you could imagine someone believing it. There's no button that says "upvote because I know it's a joke".
We're still getting used to the upvote/downvote buttons. If the site continues to detox, I expect a post like that will get a lot more upvotes in the future since we won't be worried about lending support to a terrible take that looks like a joke, but...surprise, it's real!
I miss the days of "funny trolling", instead of "toxic trolling". Your post was probably in the first category, but we're just a little too on-edge nowadays...
Hard not to agree. Such utter dominance in an Olympic final is rare. Eliud's reaction at the end is like an exasperated smile and a shrug "what can you do?" On the women's side, I think Tirunesh Dibaba was equally imposing in the 10000m final in 2012. But neither, IMO, was the GOAT performance.
Women: Almaz Ayana 2016 10000m final was jaw-dropping stuff.
Men: John Ngugi 1988 5000m final was unadulterated cojones.
Now THIS is the stuff I wanted when I made the thread :)
Ayana 2016 I think qualifies as the women’s equivalent. Truly incredible fitness, courage, and execution. Absolutely worthy of inclusion in the discussion and doesn’t get enough love since the Sifan Hassan era.
Ngugi, while bold, wasn’t such a great performance to me as any of Bekele’s Olympic victories.
The formula I’m using in my head (and absolutely a biased and flawed one) is:
if I plug runner A from race A into race B, do they still win it? For me, the Bekele who showed up to those Olympics wins all races, all time, 3k-10k, and maybe up to half marathon (not proven).
Hard not to agree. Such utter dominance in an Olympic final is rare. Eliud's reaction at the end is like an exasperated smile and a shrug "what can you do?" On the women's side, I think Tirunesh Dibaba was equally imposing in the 10000m final in 2012. But neither, IMO, was the GOAT performance.
Women: Almaz Ayana 2016 10000m final was jaw-dropping stuff.
Men: John Ngugi 1988 5000m final was unadulterated cojones.
Now THIS is the stuff I wanted when I made the thread :)
Ayana 2016 I think qualifies as the women’s equivalent. Truly incredible fitness, courage, and execution. Absolutely worthy of inclusion in the discussion and doesn’t get enough love since the Sifan Hassan era.
Ngugi, while bold, wasn’t such a great performance to me as any of Bekele’s Olympic victories.
The formula I’m using in my head (and absolutely a biased and flawed one) is:
if I plug runner A from race A into race B, do they still win it? For me, the Bekele who showed up to those Olympics wins all races, all time, 3k-10k, and maybe up to half marathon (not proven).
REALLY hard for me to believe that Ayana’s 2016 win was clean. That race was bonkers
Eh "hold a candle" was hyperbolic but there is a myth of Daniel Komen that does not match reality. He was not on the level of Bekele or Gebrselassie, nor the level of Farah, Cheptegei or others that truly dominated distance running in their time.
You can’t compare them so simply. Yes, Komen is not an all-time great like the 4 men you mentioned (I ranked him #27 on this list from 2020, and even that may be generous: https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10221588 ), but that has everything to do with longevity and lack of Olympic medals, not peak ability. At the time of the following races, you have to say he was on more or less the level of anyone to ever lace them up
Yes, but there is even a mythologizing of his peak ability, to some extent. People regularly mention Komen in the same breath as Bekele and Geb although he was certainly no match for peak Bekele and Geb ended up having the last laugh as well. There are certainly guys that have run top times and either fizzled out in a short time or never won anything big that don't have near reputation Komen does, for whatever reason (I personally think it is only due to that 7:20 and the fact that not many big outdoor 3000s are run any more -- if he hadn't, or if it was raced more regularly, we probably wouldn't hear his name too often).
Noah Ngeny comes to mind as the best example -- he has three world medals, winning gold over the GOAT in the event, he has a WR (2000m, 2:11.96) that is much higher (literally off the charts) than Komen's 7:20.67. He ran 3:43 in the mile. He is 42nd on that list you made that you linked. Worth noting that Joshua Cheptegei is actually 41st on your list, despite 2x WR, scoring better on the tables than Komen, winning more, etc. Cheptegei's 12:35.36 is slightly better than Komen's 3000 WR, and his 10,000 is better still. You can shoes me on that one, maybe, but not Ngeny.
Then there are others that were clearly better that get lumped into his tier, like Bernard Lagat, a many-time world medalist and 2x outdoor & 3x indoor world champion. You had him 23rd on your list. Surely Lagat deserves to be better than a dude whose claim to fame is running some really solid 3000s and holding the 50000 record for a year? Lagat's 3:26.34 has an almost identical score on the scoring tables to Komen's 7:20.67.
You can’t compare them so simply. Yes, Komen is not an all-time great like the 4 men you mentioned (I ranked him #27 on this list from 2020, and even that may be generous: https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10221588 ), but that has everything to do with longevity and lack of Olympic medals, not peak ability. At the time of the following races, you have to say he was on more or less the level of anyone to ever lace them up
Yes, but there is even a mythologizing of his peak ability, to some extent. People regularly mention Komen in the same breath as Bekele and Geb although he was certainly no match for peak Bekele and Geb ended up having the last laugh as well. There are certainly guys that have run top times and either fizzled out in a short time or never won anything big that don't have near reputation Komen does, for whatever reason (I personally think it is only due to that 7:20 and the fact that not many big outdoor 3000s are run any more -- if he hadn't, or if it was raced more regularly, we probably wouldn't hear his name too often).
Noah Ngeny comes to mind as the best example -- he has three world medals, winning gold over the GOAT in the event, he has a WR (2000m, 2:11.96) that is much higher (literally off the charts) than Komen's 7:20.67. He ran 3:43 in the mile. He is 42nd on that list you made that you linked. Worth noting that Joshua Cheptegei is actually 41st on your list, despite 2x WR, scoring better on the tables than Komen, winning more, etc. Cheptegei's 12:35.36 is slightly better than Komen's 3000 WR, and his 10,000 is better still. You can shoes me on that one, maybe, but not Ngeny.
Then there are others that were clearly better that get lumped into his tier, like Bernard Lagat, a many-time world medalist and 2x outdoor & 3x indoor world champion. You had him 23rd on your list. Surely Lagat deserves to be better than a dude whose claim to fame is running some really solid 3000s and holding the 50000 record for a year? Lagat's 3:26.34 has an almost identical score on the scoring tables to Komen's 7:20.67.
Birdbeard you are wrong. Daniel Komen ran 3:29, 3:46, 7:20 and 12:39. This places him as a peer of Geb and Kenenisa when all were in peak form. There is no argument here. Daniel would defeat both of them at 1500m and 3000m. At 5000m is where I do believe Kenenisa has a very slight advantage over the other two. At 10000m the advantage goes to the two Ethiopians. At their peaks they are peers. The issue is that Daniel did not have longevity. However the best runners who have ever lived have taken a crack at 7:20 and they cannot do it. The super spikes may eventually change that.
Yes, but there is even a mythologizing of his peak ability, to some extent. People regularly mention Komen in the same breath as Bekele and Geb although he was certainly no match for peak Bekele and Geb ended up having the last laugh as well. There are certainly guys that have run top times and either fizzled out in a short time or never won anything big that don't have near reputation Komen does, for whatever reason (I personally think it is only due to that 7:20 and the fact that not many big outdoor 3000s are run any more -- if he hadn't, or if it was raced more regularly, we probably wouldn't hear his name too often).
Noah Ngeny comes to mind as the best example -- he has three world medals, winning gold over the GOAT in the event, he has a WR (2000m, 2:11.96) that is much higher (literally off the charts) than Komen's 7:20.67. He ran 3:43 in the mile. He is 42nd on that list you made that you linked. Worth noting that Joshua Cheptegei is actually 41st on your list, despite 2x WR, scoring better on the tables than Komen, winning more, etc. Cheptegei's 12:35.36 is slightly better than Komen's 3000 WR, and his 10,000 is better still. You can shoes me on that one, maybe, but not Ngeny.
Then there are others that were clearly better that get lumped into his tier, like Bernard Lagat, a many-time world medalist and 2x outdoor & 3x indoor world champion. You had him 23rd on your list. Surely Lagat deserves to be better than a dude whose claim to fame is running some really solid 3000s and holding the 50000 record for a year? Lagat's 3:26.34 has an almost identical score on the scoring tables to Komen's 7:20.67.
Birdbeard you are wrong. Daniel Komen ran 3:29, 3:46, 7:20 and 12:39. This places him as a peer of Geb and Kenenisa when all were in peak form. There is no argument here. Daniel would defeat both of them at 1500m and 3000m. At 5000m is where I do believe Kenenisa has a very slight advantage over the other two. At 10000m the advantage goes to the two Ethiopians. At their peaks they are peers. The issue is that Daniel did not have longevity. However the best runners who have ever lived have taken a crack at 7:20 and they cannot do it. The super spikes may eventually change that.
not taking anything way from Komen's 3,000m but if you actually look at any of Bekele's quick 3,000m races, none were real attempts to go after his record or were plagued with terrible pacing.