Question about doubles vs. singles (masters runner)

I'm a believer of 'It all counts". I'll double a few times each week, mostly on easy days. 4-4, 7-3, 3-3 if I'm really tired. Whatever. Being almost 62 now and working full-time, there are days I just don't feel like running 8-9 miles before work. So I split it up! It works for me.

Dave

It's definitely worth a try. There's no clear answer on whether singles or doubles are more effective. If you can run 60 miles with doubles, that will be more effective than 50 in all singles.

I experimented with doubles a few times, but the schedule never works out well for me. I lose too much time getting ready/getting cleaned up afterward. I've occasionally kept it up for a week or so when doing very short runs for injury recovery (3 miles AM/3 miles PM, for example), but that's about it. Other people have had a lot more success with it.

I'd stretch your weekly long run out... 13 to 18 miles.

That will pad the weekly total, but also trigger new improvements.

No need for doubles under about 70 mpw or so unless conditions and schedule suggest otherwise.

But whatever gets it done. Nickels or dimes, it's money in the bank.

Disagree to that. If you run 6 days/week as OP does, it is something like 50mpw
Long 12.5, rest is 5 times 7.5 miles, were you have to think about doubling if you want to increase volume/week.

I have the feeling that between around 75-100 minutes of running you enter some grey zone. Too short for a long run and too long for a short run to get additional benefit.

I did doubling in my holiday as a training camp stimulus and it was successfully. You could start doing it ones or twice a week and see how that develops. I am thinking about doing that too in summer.

I regularly ran 60 to 70 mpw off singles.

One tempo a week, one quality session per week (particularly if sharpening), and a weekend long run of 13 to 19 miles.

The key is my bread-and-butter daily/easy run was 8 to 10 miles.

Nothing against doubles - I did them but didn't need to unless I was looking for bigger miles. Doubles are logistically tough... and as a master wore me out a lot more.

I say, definately unless you really aim for long racing. I am 50 and don't want to or bother running with that heavy feeling after running approx an hour. Of course this is to some degree trainable, but I want to feel good when I run. I do just 45 mpw, but do 2h of cross-training cycling so it counts in time as if I did approx 60. I have for several reasons ended up doubling every working day since I can find time and opportunity for a lunch run and to run late in the evening. This gives me many benefits:

1. I avoid getting stiff and the discomfort of running for a long time, still I get the volume

2. I feel great after training, also I feel often very good on the second run since I get nicely activated from the first run

3. I can do more workouts a week and still recover, by doing double workout days twice a week. I have also done the same volume in one go and there is no problem in doing that so splitting seems to be giving the same as not in terms of workout endurance.

4. I can recover between first and second run

5. I think I might recover a littel bit better by doing several easy a day than one longer easy.

I felt in the start I used a lot of time on training, since it takes more time, but I have come to enjoy the great feeling after a lunch run that keeps me energized, can concentrate better, feel soft and nice in the legs, etc.

I very seldom run more than 60min, but I do one weekly "long" session in that I start by 30min cycling and then run for almost an hour to simulate running being more fatigued, but not getting that beat up feeling in the legs.

So I recommend trying this for 3-4 weeks and see for yourself what you like

Our discussion reminds me and is a good example that it is better to talk about weekly training hours and not miles/km.

I don't do doubles. Instead, I run at 5:30 and go long, instead.

I'm 48 and after years of believing the mantra that running every day is always bad, I finally decided to try it anyways. I started with just a mile or two on that seventh day. My body tolerated it just fine. I increased it gradually. Now, I've built my mileage from 25 mpw, to 80 mpw as I train for Boston Marathon. I didn't think my body could tolerate it. But it can. I haven't missed a day in over 2 years.

If I'm really fatigued or need a rest day, it's one or two miles for a day, maybe more than a day. But, running daily has worked for me and I couldn't have built the mileage this high, without it. Increasing the mileage has improved my running times (marathon: 3:47>3:13>3:05; 1/2 marathon: 1:47>1:29>1:26) with no signs in reaching a plateau (yet).

I have always trained and a lot before 30 y old. We thought long sessions and long workouts were needed. I have kind of that perception with me. But I normally now do doubles, also double workouts, but only 25min work every session. I thought therefore I would have trouble doing straight 50min workouts, since I have become tired earlier and because I have thought 2x25 just is easier than 1x50. Well, I do not feel a difference and I can hit the same paces. I sometimes don't have time for double workouts so then I just make one big. This has actually suprised me and this is my experience. There are two reasons for getting tired when doing workouts, one is intensity and one is depletion and endurance. When the intensity is under control (one cannot do 50min of 5k paced work) my experience is that depletion is neither a problem for 50min workout (or longer if the intensity is accordingly)

It might be different if you race long. I focus on 5k max 10k and then it is relatively short and depletion is not a problem. For those "shorter" distances, I think shorter and often is fine.

I found that doubles help performance, but like everyone else has said, they are logistically difficult to maintain. Because of that reason I will do doubles but only during a build up during a training block for a particular race (or race season.)

I know that I can get in two days of doubles for 6-12 weeks, but no way I want to maintain that year round.

Thanks all!

Based on all the replies, I think the doubles make a lot of sense in my case. My daily weekly run is currently 8+ miles and I don't really like the idea of bumping it to 10+(especially during the summer heat), so I think something like 6 and 4 or 5.5 and 4.5 may work better.

I should have mentioned earlier, but my goal is to race 5K with the occasional 10K. Also, I don't really have the logistical issues that some have because I work from home, schedule my own hours and can run right from my door.

I can always try it for 4 weeks and see how it goes and if I don't like it I can go back to singles.

This sounds good. I'm a few years younger than you and am running 60 to 70 mpw and doing some shorter road races, but mostly marathon training. I double 0 to 2 times a week. Doing more than that, for me, is where things get logistically difficult.

One thing I've noticed on the doubles is that they really, really help me recover and set me up for whatever run comes after that. So let's say that I'm recovering from my weekend long run, I might double on Monday with a super slow recovery 6 miler in the morning, then when I run 4ish in the afternoon I often don't want to go out, but I almost always find myself feeling snappy and light on the run. Then on Tuesday if I hit the track or a tempo, it almost always goes well. That light, easy feeling from the afternoon run stays with me the next morning.

So, just my experience, but I'd say to experiment with the doubles. And I'd be curious to hear how the results go for you.

Pfitzinger seems to know what he's talking about. His advice:
"It might sound counterintuitive, but runners preparing for shorter races should run more doubles at a given level of weekly mileage than marathoners. Runners focusing on 5Ks, for example, should start adding doubles when their weekly mileage gets above 50. That’s because the 5K specialists’ main training emphasis is high-quality interval sessions, and more frequent, shorter runs will help keep their legs fresh for these workouts.

For marathoners, the basic guideline is to not do double workouts until you’ve maximized the amount you’re running in single workouts. If you’re preparing for a marathon and are running less than 75 miles (121 km) a week, then you shouldn’t regularly be running doubles. If you’re running less than 75 miles (121 km) a week, by the time you get in your long run and a midweek medium-long run, there’s no reason to double more than once or twice a week to get in the remaining miles. It’s better to get in longer runs and give your body 22 or 23 hours of recovery between runs.

Once you get above 75 miles (121 km) a week, however, double workouts have a definite role in your marathon program. As with any other aspect of training, doubles should be introduced gradually. Start by adding one double per week and then another, as you gradually increase your mileage."