I was watching the Olympics and XC skiing caught my eye. I was wondering what type of aerobic engine these guys have. Many elite runners that cant quite make it on the world stage become elite tri athletes, take Alex Yee for example. XC skiing seems like a very endurance based sport. Are the technical aspects of Cross Country Skiing that difficult to learn, or am I missing something? Seems to me that a good runner that puts in the time could become an elite Cross Country Skier, but then again I know nothing about the sport. Curious on what people more knowledgeable then me feel about this.
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It seems you are insinuating that since the talent pool is much smaller, XC skiers at the highest level are on par with 'decent' college runners.
On average XC skiers test much higher in the lab than runners. They also perform with their heart rate at a much higher level than runners and usually for a much longer time period. A major part of the latter is the fact that they do not have impact like a runner, but the fact remains that they are aerobic animals.
This does not mean that there are not untapped distance runners out there suited to the sport. But what I mentioned combined with mechanics of the sport make it much harder than just a 'decent' runner strapping on a pair of skis.
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Sometimes elite skiers can run well, but on average you need more of a triathlete build to be very good. If you watch the Nordic combined some of the top jumpers are more elite runner builds, but they tend to get crushed in the ski leg. Wider hips and shoulders and the ability to carry additional muscle would keep most elite runners from crossing over.
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The answer is absolutely not. It takes years to learn decent technique, specific strength and a real aerobic base. World Cup skiers train 800-1000 hours/year and a lot of that is strength work. I think a runner could more easily make the transition back before world cup skiing became strength oriented. Look at a guy like Erik Valnes and imagine him a runner ;)
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My guess is that by the time someone is established as a "decent college runner", whatever times that corresponds to, it's too late to switch to skiing. By the time they get elite-level technique, they could very well be past their athletic prime.
Then again, if a decent college runner continued to adapt well to aerobic training (basically unlimited volume is possible on skis, low impact), had decent balance on skis, and could put on ~20lbs of lean muscle, they might have potential at US mens' team levels (not Norway levels). I don't know any examples of this happening.
Being able to compete in cold weather is also a prerequisite. I know fast runners who can't do that.
Big fan of how the forums asks multiple times every four years or so, leads to some interesting discussions on the relationships between talent, technique, and training (and genetics).51 -
col wrote:
It seems you are insinuating that since the talent pool is much smaller, XC skiers at the highest level are on par with 'decent' college runners.
On average XC skiers test much higher in the lab than runners. They also perform with their heart rate at a much higher level than runners and usually for a much longer time period. A major part of the latter is the fact that they do not have impact like a runner, but the fact remains that they are aerobic animals.
This does not mean that there are not untapped distance runners out there suited to the sport. But what I mentioned combined with mechanics of the sport make it much harder than just a 'decent' runner strapping on a pair of skis.
Well said. The highest vo2’s ever recorded typically comes out of xc skiing.
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The first man crossing the finish line at 10km in olympics 1998 was a norwegian, the last one was a nike sponsored Kenyan named Boit. I think Boit was a better runner than Dæhlie (Boit ran a 1:46 800m).
In all seriousness, there is a huge technical aspect, a huge upper body strength component and a huge tactical component. I do believe that running ability can predict skiing ability (Henrik Ingebrigtsen and Sondre Moen was good skiers, and Didrik Tønset and Johaug is great runners). However its hard to beat someone who has been skiing semi seriously since they were 10, no matter how good of a runner you are.
With that said, skiing is fun, so everyone should give it a shot 😊
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Just had to add, running ability CAN predict skiing ability. But some of the best xc skiers were not at all good/great runners.
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It’s very tough to learn good form unless you start young. But yea, muscular miler types who weren’t the best in the world might in retrospect have been better at Nordic skiing if they had dedicated their lives to it. Alan Webb and Craig Mottram for example might have been better at Nordic skiing if they had gone for it from a young age
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Here is Valnes on Strava:20
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Don't do it.
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no dawg, xc skiers are literally insane. They have higher VO2 maxes than elite distance runners. They a whole nother breed
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Ben True was good at both. He was a 3x All-American in Nordic skiing and finished 4th in the NCAA in the 20km event when Dartmout won the NCAA skiing title.
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The answer depends somewhat on what you mean by decent and elite, but yes. Look at the Chinese skiers and biathletes the past couple weeks. They weren't near the top, but they put up a lot of credible performances could certainly be considered good. Almost all of them had never been on skis four years ago when China hired a bunch of Norwegian coaches (including perhaps their most popular athlete, Ole Einar Bjorndalen) and set up a massive effort to recruit and develop young athletes from other sports including running in a very short time period. The runners turned out to convert best to skiing. Unlike the Kenyan Boit, they all have excellent technique from what I saw. Boit was more a marketing project than a real try to be good at cross country - I had to wonder how many times he actually got on snow before his Olympic race. I did way better than Boit learning on my own at age 30, and a few years later placing top 5 in a pretty big 50K citizen's race. I loved this paragraph from the Fasterskier series:
The work of the famous duo has been apparent on the IBU World Cup, which China returned to this winter. US Biathlete Clare Egan said, “They’ve really done an incredible job bringing the athletes up. It’s funny because Daria [Domracheva] has a very unique and beautiful, graceful ski style and now all of the Chinese women, half the time I think they’re Daria when they go by me, they all ski exactly like her.”
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tryagain wrote:
no dawg, xc skiers are literally insane. They have higher VO2 maxes than elite distance runners. They a whole nother breed
No they are just doing a sport that recruits more muscle massm Go run with some hand weights and your measured vo2max would go up. You wouldn't really be any more fit.
Reality is that some of these athletes might have done well in another endurance s port but the years of effort to develop technique and the slight differences in body types makes it unlikely.
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More fun with Stipulations wrote:
I was watching the Olympics and XC skiing caught my eye. I was wondering what type of aerobic engine these guys have. Many elite runners that cant quite make it on the world stage become elite tri athletes, take Alex Yee for example. XC skiing seems like a very endurance based sport. Are the technical aspects of Cross Country Skiing that difficult to learn, or am I missing something? Seems to me that a good runner that puts in the time could become an elite Cross Country Skier, but then again I know nothing about the sport. Curious on what people more knowledgeable then me feel about this.
The answer is usually no unless the college athlete had some experience of skiing at a young age. Cross country skiing is a technique sport and technique sports require people to learn the technique when they are young in order to master the technique and I don’t think there’s any way around that. Vincent Vittoz, from France, became a world champion in cross country skiing but in the skating variety of skiing which is less technique based compared with classic style and he had a background in ice-hockey before taking up cross country skiing in his late teens. To master both techniques you would have to start young and when I say young I assume (at the latest), in the 9 to 12 years old age group. If anyone can find different exceptions to this please post here. I often compare elite cross country skiers to elite swimmers because both disciplines require people to start at a very young age and honing their technique over many years at a young age. It would be interesting to look at Ben True’s profile as a cross country skier to find out more about this question.
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Dueling pandas wrote:
col wrote:
It seems you are insinuating that since the talent pool is much smaller, XC skiers at the highest level are on par with 'decent' college runners.
On average XC skiers test much higher in the lab than runners. They also perform with their heart rate at a much higher level than runners and usually for a much longer time period. A major part of the latter is the fact that they do not have impact like a runner, but the fact remains that they are aerobic animals.
This does not mean that there are not untapped distance runners out there suited to the sport. But what I mentioned combined with mechanics of the sport make it much harder than just a 'decent' runner strapping on a pair of skis.
Well said. The highest vo2’s ever recorded typically comes out of xc skiing.
This. If you compared Klaebo to say Hocker, it wouldn't even be close how much higher Klaebo's vo2 max would be. There is a big gap between the #1 group (cross country skiers) and the 2nd and 3rd group (runners and cyclists).
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I just read the article from faster skier magazine and so I think my position is to acknowledge that there is a possibility to take very motivated people at a later age and develop them into competent international level cross country skiers, as was the case with these Chinese cc skiers coached by the Norwegians.
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Heres a study link. Big gap between 1 and 2.
Also in the top recorded off all time there's either 1 or no road/track runners on the list. It's cyclists, cross country skiers, and ultra runners (killian and Matt Carpenter). Regualr runners are fourth rate on Vo2 max...lol.
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Ghost1 wrote:
I just read the article from faster skier magazine and so I think my position is to acknowledge that there is a possibility to take very motivated people at a later age and develop them into competent international level cross country skiers, as was the case with these Chinese cc skiers coached by the Norwegians.
It's possible but highly improbable. They would be well behind the curve physically, aerobically and actual skiing ability.
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