Is there value in doing 20-25x 400m w/ 20s rest at 'threshold effort' as a stand alone session?

That’s a pretty hard workout IMO. I would do sets of 4x400m with 30 sec rest in between reps and 1-2 minutes between sets.

That goes beyond any levels of training I would ever do, personally, or ask my runners to fo, except as a voluntary one-off "challenge" or a special novelty competition . Probably not gonna strike some of the ambitious folks as implausible.

But for me, I'd reduce that by a lot. Head for the roads and hills!

Seriously???

I did 20x 400m w/ 25s rest (walking, of course) the other day, and it felt pretty much like a 20min tempo run or a 4x1 mile threshold. Only difference was that I could run much faster, probably between 15-10k pace while experincing the same level of perceived effort as I would on the aforementioned session.

I came here to ask if there was value to this session because if anything, if felt like an easier way of running 8km at threshold effort (but at a faster pace)

SanDiegorunner wrote:

That’s a pretty hard workout IMO. I would do sets of 4x400m with 30 sec rest in between reps and 1-2 minutes between sets.

I second this. I think its fine to go to the tank every once in a while but that's a lot of stress with 30 seconds rest. I don't think it would be a terrible idea to do 2x10x400 at threshold(3+ minutes of rest), but that would be my upper limit

DeaconBlues wrote:

SanDiegorunner wrote:

That’s a pretty hard workout IMO. I would do sets of 4x400m with 30 sec rest in between reps and 1-2 minutes between sets.

I second this. I think its fine to go to the tank every once in a while but that's a lot of stress with 30 seconds rest. I don't think it would be a terrible idea to do 2x10x400 at threshold(3+ minutes of rest), but that would be my upper limit

I don't quite get it why you guys are saying this is such a hard workout, isn't 4-5x 1mile 'threshold' w/ 60-90s rest a bread and butter workout?

My guess is, at tempo pace, If trying to get tempo benefit, and not just trying to open up that pace someday down the line, that ;20 is too much rest. And really the rest is just a counting device. Once it feels easier, it isnt a substitute, but it can be a stepping stone. but all the accelerations , restarting, matter a lot.

some variation in training please wrote:

I know the ingebrigtsens do this, but as part of a double threshold day. But I was thinking if it still would have some value as a stand alone session, instead of doing a 20-25min tempo run or 5x 1mile at threshold pace.

I have noticed that by splitting the workout into shorter reps with short rest you can usually cover a longer distance at a much faster pace (than threshold pace) but with the same felling or the same effort of a threshold session.

So would there be worth implementing this workout, and if so it would be best to put it after or before the longet continuous (and therefore slower) stuff?

It's a very good workout ,but much better with individual needed rest back to 120 bpm. In fact some fast marathoners sometimes runs 40 x 400m at threshold and shorter rest than running 20 x400m at 5 k pace.

some variation in training please wrote:

I know the ingebrigtsens do this, but as part of a double threshold day. But I was thinking if it still would have some value as a stand alone session, instead of doing a 20-25min tempo run or 5x 1mile at threshold pace.

I have noticed that by splitting the workout into shorter reps with short rest you can usually cover a longer distance at a much faster pace (than threshold pace) but with the same felling or the same effort of a threshold session.

So would there be worth implementing this workout, and if so it would be best to put it after or before the longet continuous (and therefore slower) stuff?

Sure, it gives basically the same regardless if you do it as part of double day or not. It is Threshold/Tempo effort and with the short rest you will get a break that somehow makes an almost continuous session feel less hard. Jakob does either 60/25 (which is 400m for him) or he does 90/30 where he closes in on 3k pace for him. He is still below his Lactate target.

20s will slow you slightly down in comparison, but be enough to feel ready. You have to control the effort of the 400s and I guess they will end up going 15s/mile faster than your true continuous threshold or tempo target pace. If you have a lactate meter it is easy, if not you need to try this out some times or have great feel for the tempo effort to aim for.

It shall NOT be hard and you should be able to do 5 more easily at the end, maybe even 10 if this is below threshold.

If your going to do a workout like that at least do it on the road. So boring on the track. Obviously their doing something right but i still prefer rotating tempo run with cruise intervals and alterations.

20-25x400 w/ 20-30s rest (or 100m jog) is a great workout. You can get a threshold stimulus while running a little bit faster. Just because the Ingebrigtsens do it as a second workout of the day doesn't mean it's not a great workout. It is. So is 5xMile at threshold off 90s rest. So is 8x1k off 60s rest. So is a tempo run. 99.9% of people do not need to do double threshold workouts. They can get a lot of benefit from just the single session.

You need to look at it as time on your feet for the rep and then apply that recovery.... the main idea is you dont run yourself to the ground doing it (so it is not a 5k effort). 20" is too short

Same for the number of reps.... 20-25x too many unless you run 64"s

Idk if I would go all the way down to 400m reps for threshold work. I have done repeat 800s at threshold effort with 30 seconds rest just to switch things up. Bread and butter is usually 1-3 mile repeats.

yeah i think its fine i used to do like 16 with 30 sec as kind of starter wo i just find all the starting and stopping a little annoying id prefer 8s or 16s/mile or 32s once u get into rhythm over time.

Why are people saying this is a hard workout. Nobody would bat an eye at 4 miles continuous at LT pace. This is easier than that. It seems like a good introduction to LT pace if you are really out of shape or a light LT maintenance workout during a period where you are focusing on other stuff.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Why are people saying this is a hard workout. Nobody would bat an eye at 4 miles continuous at LT pace. This is easier than that. It seems like a good introduction to LT pace if you are really out of shape or a light LT maintenance workout during a period where you are focusing on other stuff.

I have to agree here. I think people just freak out when they see 20-25 reps. But 4-6 x 1 mile with 1 min rest is also common and has less total rest,

We would do 25 x 400 at 10K pace with 30sec 100m continuous jogs in between all the time. It's more difficult than a traditional tempo but nothing crazy hard at all. It's a great marathon or half marathon session, that is, if you can keep count. I'd rather do 10 x 1000 with 60 sec 200 jog

Back in my college days I did a 20 x 800 @ 2:30-2:32 w 200 jog recovery workout

That is 10 mile worth of work at LT pace or a little quicker for me. I always seems to excel at these type of workouts as I recovered very easily/quickly between repeats.

Probably on paper the best workout of my life.

I set my lifetime 10k PR 2 weeks later.

20-25x70s on/20 off was a staple session for endurance athletes in the 1970s/80s. Kjell-Erik Ståhl did them before he came 4th in the 1983 WC.