My impression of mass starts and marathons are that the elites are fine as they get to start at front but the sub elites are most affected by poorly seeded runners getting in their way
Stopping in road running slowly blocking sun elites etc.
I’m not sure corrals are working as best as they can?
It seems like the big races Boston etc need to work on making it better for sub elites to run fast…especially seeding
I have had runners stop in races right in front of me or other crazy stuff
Anyone?
Yeah nothing worse than those clowns who always start at the front where they don't belong. It's okay sometimes I suppose but when good starting positions are at a premium they deserve a punch in the face.
Sub elite is no different from any other paying entrant, so should be treated the same.
Sub elites not sun elites
no, never had that problem, other than small local 5Ks where the kids dash out in front and come to a near stop 200 meters in, that's the worst. Big time marathons, no problem. You don't need to get out fast if you have 26 miles to run. It's not like a 2:25 guy is starting in the 3:30 corral. Usually you have plenty of room to run within 400 meters
Lol. Did you see the first wave after the elites at Boston? There were old men and guys in basketball shoes on the front line. It was embarrassing. The gun went off and one guy started to walk.
I am not even a sub elite at 2:40. I ran Boston multiple times and New York.
New York was a horrible experience prior to the race but I was in the first corral behind the elites. I got jammed up for about 10 seconds then I was clear. 6:20 up the bridge, 5:40 down the bridge. No problems at all. Never had an issue in Boston. Sun elites had an even better position.
I ran Disney at the end of my Marathon “career” a few years ago. 25000 in the race. I was lined up front and clear in a couple of seconds. Finished in 18th or 19th. Ran Philly with several thousand. I had one issue running through two guys with water belts lined up where they should not be but other than that no issues.
Have things changed?
I have no idea why you'd think simply paying for a race entitles a person to do something incredibly stupid with negative effects on others' races and presumably no gain for their own (or incredibly minimal for the thrill or selfie moment of being up closer at the start). Kind of like just stopping out of the blue in the middle of a water stop.
I just don't think it's at all hard for anyone to know that if the corral proceeds from the fastest to the slowest, everyone goes out most smoothly and can run their own pace freely. Everyone benefits. Similarly, I'm always dismayed that people act like they have to start jogging from their place in the corral 100yds back from the start and stay pressed up against the people in front of them (but perhaps they do if they're caught up in the tide; there's no easy way to resist it). But if people would just walk up and let the crowd get less dense, they could start running at a normal pace at the start line, when time/pace actually matters. Nope. Instead, it has to be an obstacle race for the first mile.
Yeah, I'm baffled by people doing stupid crap. Slow learner, I guess.
In Chicago the 3 hour pacers inexplicably lined up near the front of the first corral (the qualifying time for the corral was 3:00) and caused a bit of a logjam. I was a little surprised no one with the race told them not to do this
You know, I ran a half marathon this morning, and one small Covid change which has been helpful (amid a sea of not helpful changes) is that locally, most races are starting in waves of 100 runners every two minutes. They seed the runners into waves based on their projected finishing time, which you enter at registration. You can enter a finishing time, or a pace per mile. Obviously, people might still enter an incorrect projection. However, in my race today, I ran 1:44. I ran the entire race more or less with a pack of people that started in my wave. Of course, I'm far from subelite. They started in an earlier wave. But I think the seeding approach works really well.
Seriously it’s annoying as hell when people can
When people are badly seeded at race starts.
Maybe I’m wrong but it seems the race directors obligation is to run a race where the most amount of people can have the potential to run as fast as they want to…
When poorly seeded runners slow faster runners down…this goes out the window.
Runners stopping in the middle of the race when it’s packed on the road? Come on folks do better…it’s one thing when Bill Rodgers stops to tie his shoe with no one around…totally another when some improperly seeded runner stops when it s wall to wall runners and slows 25-30 runners right behind them.
The waters stops in the first few miles are a nightmare too (mass Marathons). Run right down middle of road and skip it…if properly hydrated should not need it.
Ran nyc and several other big marathons and had water spilled on me many times…soggy shoes suck for 20 miles…or clothes. Had to ask 15-20 people around me that I was pulling over for water even 10 miles in.
Also had guys stop to high five each other…slow progress.
Big city marathons have some growing pains…need effective solutions.
Sub Elites need run faster than it wouldn’t be a problem. The elites need to run faster too, for that matter!
wiked pissah wrote:
Maybe I’m wrong but it seems the race directors obligation is to run a race where the most amount of people can have the potential to run as fast as they want to…
I actually think you’re wrong? By virtue of being a large, mass participation race, they have decided that setting up everyone to run their fastest isn’t their top priority. The Marathon Project was set up for that, the elite fields at WMMs and other major marathons are set up for that (or at least for good, fair competition in controlled circumstances—which isn’t always the same as being set up for the fastest time), and some small no-frills races (last-chance BQ-type races) or mid-sized downhill races (e.g., Revel races, St. George, the Tunnel Marathons) are designed with that in mind. But for the mass participation field at most major marathons, RDs and event organizers are balancing a lot of competing interests—safety, participant experience, earned media, etc—and whether they can create optimal conditions for a sub-elite or local elite to run 30-120 seconds faster than they might under other conditions is just one of those interests.
Some mid-majors prioritize that more than others (CIM, Indy, and Grandma’s come to mind), so a runner of your ilk may want to consider races like those (or a smaller race) to have the performance environment you want. But I think you’re right that if you run a World Marathon Major (or many mid-majors) as a sub-elite or local elite, creating a perfect performance environment for you isn’t a high priority.
So choose your races accordingly, and know that if you do choose a race that doesn’t prioritize sub-elite performance, you may want to choose a goal other than “run as fast as possible” (e.g., win your AG or even win overall if the race isn’t that competitive, practice a fueling or pacing strategy while running a strong but not “to the well” effort that will be helpful in a future marathon where you are chasing a PR, or just enjoy a scenic 26.2 mile trip through closed roads in a city). If none of those goals sound appealing to you, than maybe those marathons aren’t the marathon for you.
Never had an issue in a marathon and only had one race in which I was slowed for 2k+ at a start of a half.
It was a slight incline start and my goal was to pb as I was in best shape of my life… I gave up on my goal at 4K since I was already over a minute down due to the poor start.
no one did anything wrong but there were too many slower runners in front of me and it took too much energy to dance around the runners.
I was in the first corral but I needed to run a steady pace as there was no way my pace could be off by 15-30 seconds per K and hope to make it up later.so, I caught up with a slower friend and we ran together to the finish line - he pb’ed.
Anyway… only one race of many so I don’t think it’s a bid deal.
If you think there are slower runners in the corral in front of you then get there early and go to the front.. if you are sub elite in the race…. Just make sure you’re not the jackass that should be behind the runners that you are ahead of at the start!
I've run at all 3 US Majors multiple times. I've never seen a problem with this. They are very strict in allowing people into the right corrals.
However, if you're a 2:25 marathoner, and you get stuck in the same corral as a 2:40 marathoner, you'll probably have to run past a few of them. I imagine that's mildly annoying...especially if you're a dbag. But this is a non-issue in my experience.
I’ve run NYC a few times—elite start once and first wave other times. A few years ago I was in the first corral and was shocked by the number of much slower people who ran out ahead who either stopped or slowed significantly to take selfies. It was unbelievable!
There’s no effort to encourage people to line up in the corral according to pace. They opened the gate and it was a free for all to get up to the front or near it. I accepted that I wouldn’t be near the front (I hoped to run 2:45 that day) and figured it wouldn’t matter much. I just didn’t expect to have to weave around people going *really* slow and also taking selfies. Pretty dangerous since if anyone fell, they have thousands of people coming right behind them.
sepreh wrote:
Sub elite is no different from any other paying entrant, so should be treated the same.
I think that is kind of his point. Everybody paying up enter should be treated the same. Specifically: they should be put somewhere where the people around them are about the same speed.
It doesn't do anybody any good to be in the wrong spot. The 4 hour jogger doesn't benefit by being in the way of 2:30 guys trying to slalom around him. It is discouraging to the gallowalker and frustrating to the fast amateur.
Same for sub elites. A guy running 2:15 pace past a 2:30 guy will make the 2:30 guy feel slow.
So yes, treat everybody the same and keep the starts progressive so everybody can run comfortably.
In my experience, it's only an issue at the shorter distance fun runs. Marathon corrals usually solve 99% of problems.
That's why they are SUB-elite.
Two races where I remember this being a significant problem:
NYC Marathon where they line up the NYPD and NYFD at the front of the blue start right behind the elites but in front of the people hoping to run 2:35-2:40. The sub-elite corral is at either the green or orange start, so they're clear. But why anyone thinks it's a good idea to put those police and firemen at the front is beyond me. It's not like there are any spectators on the bridge to cheer on the mass of them, and by the time they get off the bridge they've been swallowed up by and dispersed among all of the faster runners going past them.
Small local 5Ks with kids on the start line like another poster said. Related to that are charity (e.g. Komen) races where middle-aged breast cancer survivors get on the starting line wearing pink sweatshirts, then start their 5K walk. Of course nobody wants to say anything to them given their circumstances, but I saw one race where a couple of them about got trampled.
wiked pissah wrote:
My impression of mass starts and marathons are that the elites are fine as they get to start at front but the sub elites are most affected by poorly seeded runners getting in their way
Stopping in road running slowly blocking sun elites etc.
I’m not sure corrals are working as best as they can?
It seems like the big races Boston etc need to work on making it better for sub elites to run fast…especially seeding
I have had runners stop in races right in front of me or other crazy stuff
Anyone?
Stop making the term "sub-elite" a thing. It's not a real category. You are an amature runner, just the same as the 4 and 5 hour marathoners. The pros are the only ones racing for prize money in the majors and are the only ones that need preferential start times. You can have your moment in the smaller marathons.