Suicidal PAAVO training cult

How sad is it that people can come on here and blame paavo for their own personal short comings. >>

I don't think people are doing that at all. There are some serious problems with the PAAVO program that are being aired in public. Admit it or not, there ARE some problems with PAAVO for certain people and it can be a disaster in the hands of the wrong coach.

<< its really hard for me to hear people call paavo a cult, or say that its a money making scam, because i really loved my time spent there and truly believe that it helped me become a better runner. >>

You're seeing this from an athlete's point of view; my view and many others' are from a coaching point of view. Maybe scam is a strong word, but I would have much more respect for PAAVO if Marshall Sellers shared his ideas by publishing them and letting people try them out, modify them to their individual circumstances and find out what works best for them like other coaches have done.

I don't think Kryzminski does Paavo anymore. That's not how they train at Michigan State. She was fast before but she's alot faster now.

I Love Sara Wells wrote:

Victoria Jackson was another PAAVO Alum, as well as Adam Wallace and Jamie Kryzminski.

As a person who trained using the Paavo program in high school, as a runner who attended 6 camps as a high schooler, and as a person who still believes and continues to learn in the program, I can say that Paavo works very well for those who wish to utilize it. Coach Sellers is a great man who has been developing and teaching the system for over 30 years now. I had a 15:48 5K PR in high school, a 4:24 1600, and a 9:33 3200. Those were developed by 4 years of training using the program. I started with very little talent (a 5:55 1600 PR in 8th grade was run off of my "talent") and developed into a good runner. Now that I am learning more and more about the Paavo system, I realize I could have potentially become even better in high school had I known what I know now about what I did wrong and right with it. But, it works. Someone right away asked about PR's. Well, those are hard to find, but I will tell you that if you are from Michigan, then you'd know that Corunna high school produced Jamie Kryzminski (now an all-American at MSU) and Jared Aldrich as individual champs in class B a few years ago. The boys team also won a few years back. This year the Division 2 race was won by a Paavo runner, and the runnerup was also a Paavo runner; Riley Klingel and Jeff Byrne. If you are from Pennsylvania, then you would know Chris Spooner who was a state champion last fall. If you are from Wyoming, then you would know the always nationally ranked Campbell County high school team and annual state champion. If you are from Alabama, then you would know Phil Moore and his state champion team from Hoover High School last fall. If you are from California, then you would know Melissa Grelli who was an individual state champion last fall. If you are from Indiana, then you would know Columbus North who was runnerup last year and champion this year (their girls were 4th). If you pay attention to Foot Locker Nationals, then it might be of interest to you that Christian Wagner and Andrew Jones are part of the above-mentioned Columbus North and Campbell County teams. I could list people forever to try to prove the success of the Paavo system. Even if you do not believe in the system, I will tell you that the camps themselves are a great experience. They were my favorite part about my summers during high school. There is nothing better than getting into the atmosphere of so many positively charged runners who actually understand the whole subculture.

If you want more information, just ask or provide an e-mail address. I'd be happy to provide more insight.

Hey van,

thanks for the compliments... I remember that mcallie school meet fondly. such an incredible school. loved the flowers lining the inside of the track... are you the baylor coach? if so you have done quite a nice job with your program... I think anyone who went to school and ran around my time remembers the enigma that was Jamie Gifford. keep up the good work. feel free to drop a line if you have any training matters you'd like to discuss.

KR

First off I resent the comment that the reason paavo didn't work for me was because I wasn't willing to put in the work to be good. I believe that the best way to become a good runner is to work hard. This past summer I trained at

95-100 miles a week which I would say is willing to put in work. With regard to paavo after I stopped running that crap program I was able to come back from being burned out a year and a half later and win the cross country state championship. Also this past year I was able to qualify for nationals in indoor track so I would keep your mouth shut about work ethic until you find your own. Paavo is a crap program that I have seen nothing good come out of it. In 5 years of seeing this training I have seen new runners run some pretty quick times just to end up hating running and end up becomming slower. Paavo makes it so that you race your teammates nearly every day which turns them into your enemies instead of your teammates which I believe is one of the greatest assests a person has when they are hurting in a race. Next lets look at just two days of the training. Tuesday lets say I am supposed to run a ppm run. Now I come through the mile in 4:50 then run a 5:10 and a 5:30 that is 5:10 pace for the entire run. Now the next day I am supposed to run at 5:55 pace for a 6 mile run please that is far past a tempo run and causes lactic acid production therefore breaking down the already broken down muscles from the previous day. Ok so that doesn't sound to bad yet two hard days in a row there are many people who believe that is a good thing. Wait there is thursday where you are now supposed to run another ppm day this means a 4 mile run where your first three miles is supposed to be at "your all out 3 mile pace" then you are supposed to tack on another mile. So lets say your pace for this day slipped and was now at 5:20 this means that your next day is another 6 mile run at 6:05 pace not as bad as wednesdays run except for the fact that your muscles have now been broken down for 3 days in a row. Well now 4 hard days in a row on to saturday this shouldn't be to bad wait yes it is you have to run an all out mile and then run your long run on top of that. Tell me that even sounds right. Hey lets go to a race today and then we will just run our long run afterwards. So now we have 5 hard days in a row. On to Sunday which is another all 6 mile run at 6:05 pace once again this is hard on the body and continues to break it down. Well good thing tomorrow is an easy day and it is only a long run. I hear those don't put any stress on ones body and I hear they are a lot less strenous after 6 days of hard work. Then what do you do, you get to move up to a week that is 10 miles higher than the past week but have no fear after going up 3 weeks in a row you get a 3 week period of the same mileage. That is if you have reached this stage and you can still move your legs at a rate that would be called running. Oh well maybe you should take a day off everyonce in awhile and let your body recover well that would be a good idea except paavo says that you aren't supposed to take a day off crap there goes that good idea. Someone please tell me a physiologist that says you shouldn't take days off. Please find anyone who says that there should never be a break after seasons. I once was told about a girl who had over 1000 consecutive days like that was something to be proud about. That means he has run every day for 3 years nearly. That isn't good for her body and I can guarentee she will find out the "benefits" of it later in life when she can't have children because she has messed up her hormone levels so bad. I would also make the bet that she didn't run every day just like she was supposed to which means that she didn't even do paavo right and she is bragged about by mister sellars. Finally comes to the point that paavo takes the coaching out of coaching. It teaches a coach to read a sheet of paper tell the kids what to do write down the times and then tell them what they have the next day. It doesn't teach the coach to listent to their runners bodies and to adapt things if they come up. No it teaches that if you don't do what a stupid sheet of paper says that was written by a stupid man then you aren't doing the program right. and that is all folks

I don't really have an opinion either way on the PAAVO system because in high school I was successful on it. Our CT runs were more relaxed than the actual tru CT runs but we did do the 3 workouts a week plus a race, and sometimes I was doing 4 workouts a race plus a race. My CT runs did usually get up to the 6:20-45 range though and during the off-season we definetly ran the CT runs at the faster end. We based the CT runs off of our longest PPM instead of the same distance PPM. So if you did 10 miles at 6:00 pace your CT pace for any distance would be 6:45, that I believe is more managable. We didn't have very many ppl injured. Mostly because sometimes the runners just didn't do the workouts..lol. I do have to stay that runners tend to peak after 2-3 years on the program. I went from 5:30 first timed mile in XC freshman year to 4;27 sophomore track and 10:30 first 2mile freshman year to 9:32 senior year and XC times of 20:06 first 5k freshman year to 15:53 at state meet senior year. My best times always came at the end of the year. I was never injured in high school.

Alan

you run 95-100 miles a week, but you take days off? your a national qaulifier and think that easy days at about 6:05 pace are to hard? past paavo runner, i feel alot better now. before i thought, oh no, maybe i had been decieved and there was some dark side of paavo i was going to run into down the road. but considering your boastful and laughable contradictions, Im pretty sure most of what you have been saying on here is a lie, and more over, that my assumption regarding your lack of success with or without paavo was correct. if your so inclined, email me at dbthexcrunner@hotmail.com, give me credible information regarding your stellar hs career post paavo, and at this point, assuming you can do all that, i will come up with some way to make it up to you, ill call marshall and demand a refund or apologize on here, whatever. im really not worried about that happening, like i said, i think you are full of it. and if your not who you say you are, maybe you could just kindly stop making false accusations and putting such a negative spin on something that means so much to me and alot of other paavos? thatd be excellent.

If you are writing for reasons other than pure venting/self-expression (in other words, if you are actually interested in people listening to what you have to say), consider doing your audience the favour of inserting paragraph breaks!

On a more substantive note, I fail to see the contradiction in taking a day off in a 100-mile week or qualifying for nationals at whatever level and finding easy days at 6:05-pace too hard. If you don't think either is possible, your exposure to the wider world of distance running must be quite limited.

There's a cross country team in my state, that goes to the Paavo camp every summer. A few of their runners where extremely fast early in highschool, during freshmen and sophomore year. They would kill me by minutes in a 5k, then suddenly they platued. I started killing them by a minute my junior year, then 90 seconds senior year. By senior year, they where going backwards, running slower then their sophomore and freshmen years. This is the case with their whole team too. Slowly every other team went right by, and all their seniors go off to college and run for a season then quit all together. I think there's a limit to how much we can handle, and how much we can take at this age.

yes well maybe angela kudla only made it to footlocker finals her junior year, but i know that this is because she aquired the disease called acid relux--- obviously not related to the PAAVO program at all. she is now running quite well at cornell university

I think you may need to get your facts straight before making examples out of (apparently contrary to your belief) GREAT runners. As in Angela Kudla's case, she would fall under the category of successes of the PAAVO program, and every runner has setbacks... not necessarily linked to their training routine in any way. I only have seen success from the program, especially in Angela's case. Catch some of her performances this outdoor season and then you can realize where you went wrong there.

I don't think that there is a better summer running camp for high school cross country runners then PAAVO. You don't just learn about training, but you also become a better person and you realize the character one must develop to be a great runner. As for the program in HS, I think that it would never cause "peaking" too soon or burning out. You build an aerobic base early in the season with PPM runs, and then as the season progresses you move into slow intervals and you do fartleks on the track only towards the waaaaay end of the season (sectionals, regionals). I dont think anybody has a place criticizing the program till they have experienced it. If you work hard and follow the structures w/in the program, you will improve.

im pretty sure he is emailing you. i ran on his high school team and now his college team. before paavo, i ran 1:58,4:24,9:33 on the same day as a sophomore in high school. i went on paavo and trained my butt off and ended up running only 2:00,4:28 and 9:46 the next year. my sr year, my coach said i wasnt seeing results because i wasnt doing it right, so i was hardcore the first 6 weeks and really went after my ppm days. i was completely worn out and was getting slower and slower because i never got to recover. i took a few weeks off, just ran 30-35mpw my sr year and dropped paavo and ended up being a sub 4:20,9:20 guy and ran 15:13 in xc. paavo sucks.

I have to admit PAAVO really works. After years of lydiard PAAVO finally got me under 14:30 for 5k. Lydiard was okay but PAAVO REALLY got me down to 14:27. Lydiard training only got me 15:20 or so.

PAAVO is just more advanced and it works.

its the best!

Ha Ha ... nice sarcasm.

YES! PAAVO got my marathon to under 3 hours. I knoww that doesn't sound fast but before that I couldn't break 3.5 hours. I know my time sucks but it was worse before. I know a bunch of dudes who train like hell and can't beat my 2:47 PR at Chicago. I personally saw less injuries over time it was great!!!!!!!!! Maybe it was just that the system got me focus but I've never considered myself talented, i couldn't even break 5 minutes in the mile in high school now I can go 4:29 with the PAAVO.

Look there is no secret. Anything can work you just have to work hard.

Just keep training and training until you become injured and lose both knee caps like lydiard. Then you will realize that you are in the wrong sport.

THE END

so reed f. emailed me, and if he ran 4:11 after paavo and says it was because he was burned out on paavo who am I to disagree. I was completely wronge. i continue to have faith in the program, but im not a 4:11 miler by any means, so i would like to apologize for claiming that past paavo runner was a failure. I really dont know how someone fits 100 miles into a 6 day week, but its doin more for him than 80 mile a week in 7 days is doing for me, so more power to him. I hope everyone else who didnt find success with paavo finds it like reed did. considering this new insight, i really should refrain from commenting anymore, but i appreiciate everyones responses, happy running.

he didnt run 100 mile weeks on paavo, probably about 45-55. he did 90-100mpw last summer as a college runner. he did paavo his first 3 years of high school and only was low 4:40s in the mile his jr year, but his paavo free senior year, got down to 4:20. the ppms are enough to burn you out. i would run my first mile in 4:40 and be expected to hold that pace as long as i could for an 8 mile ppm. thats just totally insane and is asking for trouble.