Faster than threshold tempo?

mistar wrote:

I know the usual definition of a tempo run is actually at lactate threshold.

I’ve been reading some material from coaches like Canova and Marcus O’Sullivan, and they also make reference to making your lactate threshold higher by working at paces just faster than LT. like instead of “pushing” the threshold from below, you’re “pulling” it from above.

My question is, could you do a faster tempo run, say 10-15 minutes, to work on pulling your threshold up? Is there a purpose to longer continuous running at a pace faster than threshold?

I'm an older guy so can you define what lactate threshold pace is and how it's calculated?

The pace you're describing is often referred to as CV/critical velocity pace. Most coaches using it prescribe longer intervals (like 5 x 1000m) instead of a continuous run. That way you can still get a significant volume at pace without overstressing the system with a sustained run at 10K pace.

roller coaster wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

I'm an older guy so can you define what lactate threshold pace is and how it's calculated?

No. Look it up yourself.

Seriously old man, you obviously know how to use the internet because you're here. Go figure it out yourself.

It would have taken less time on your part to explain it than to berate me. It would be better to hear it in your own words rather than look it up myself.

I’m defining lactate threshold at the point where lactate in the blood starts to spike. I think that’s a generally universally accepted definition.

And yes, I know that running faster than threshold is usually broken into intervals, so you can get more volume.

But this is what I’m getting at. If you’re nearing peaking, especially for 5k-10k…you could do 3 miles continuous at 10k pace. The benefit from running continuously would be very high, and because you’re close to your peak race you don’t need quite as much volume as you did earlier. Especially for someone who isn’t super aerobically developed it would be really tough mentally and physically to run continuously at a faster pace

SDSU Aztec wrote:

roller coaster wrote:

No. Look it up yourself.

Seriously old man, you obviously know how to use the internet because you're here. Go figure it out yourself.

It would have taken less time on your part to explain it than to berate me. It would be better to hear it in your own words rather than look it up myself.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, you DESERVE to be berated. You hijaked an innocent guy's topic to ask a question you could have easily Googled.

From most of what I've seen of Canova's programs, when he prescribes faster-than-threshold pace to affect threshold, it's done as an alternation with a pace just slower than threshold. Essentially, averaging threshold pace while spending time at paces faster than.

This would presumably have a double benefit of teaching the body how to maintain a faster pace through the fast reps, and efficiently shuttle lactate while still running just below the threshold. A simultaneous pushing and pulling of the lactate threshold, to follow your metaphor.

Example: alternating 800m/1k at CV/10k pace and Marathon pace.

You're describing racing, ie interval pace without breaks. Of course you can do it in training, but it will need long recovery time.

The training you are describing is to generate a lactate peak and then the body uses it as fuel, i.e., the body gets used to harnessing and utilizing the lactic acid generated more quickly and efficiently.

Potro desbocado wrote:

The training you are describing is to generate a lactate peak and then the body uses it as fuel, i.e., the body gets used to harnessing and utilizing the lactic acid generated more quickly and efficiently.

Explain more.

Let's see how I explain it in a simplified and understandable way. There is a point from which lactate production is exponential and the body is not able to reuse it as fuel, this point is called maximum lactate steady state, which coincides with the anaerobic threshold. The idea of this training is to exceed this threshold for a while to generate a significant amount of lactate and then go down to a point where the body is able to reuse it as energy, which is called lactate clearance. This forces the body to learn to reuse this fuel quickly and more efficiently. The mitochondria are responsible for recycling lactate as fuel, which is why easy long runs are so important, as they serve to increase the number and size of mitochondria.

Some marathoners do train also at around 3mmol lactate level (e.g. Kipchoge does).

What do you think about that?

Potro desbocado wrote:

Let's see how I explain it in a simplified and understandable way. There is a point from which lactate production is exponential and the body is not able to reuse it as fuel, this point is called maximum lactate steady state, which coincides with the anaerobic threshold. The idea of this training is to exceed this threshold for a while to generate a significant amount of lactate and then go down to a point where the body is able to reuse it as energy, which is called lactate clearance. This forces the body to learn to reuse this fuel quickly and more efficiently. The mitochondria are responsible for recycling lactate as fuel, which is why easy long runs are so important, as they serve to increase the number and size of mitochondria.

Maximal Lactate Steady State is the same as Maximal Oxygen Uptake or VO2max. Renato Canova never calls it VO2max though.

It's not realistic to expect an increase in your true VO2max but rather an Extension of the pace from an untrained state to a highly trained state i.e. Aerobic Endurance improvement.

Then there is the improvement in Aerobic Efficiency also known as Running Economy, i.e. faster pace for the same effort.

mistar wrote:

I’m defining lactate threshold at the point where lactate in the blood starts to spike. I think that’s a generally universally accepted definition.

And yes, I know that running faster than threshold is usually broken into intervals, so you can get more volume.

But this is what I’m getting at. If you’re nearing peaking, especially for 5k-10k…you could do 3 miles continuous at 10k pace. The benefit from running continuously would be very high, and because you’re close to your peak race you don’t need quite as much volume as you did earlier. Especially for someone who isn’t super aerobically developed it would be really tough mentally and physically to run continuously at a faster pace

That's almost exactly what I used to do to get ready for big races when I was a few weeks away - I'd run a solo, hard, but controlled 5K in preparation for a 5K-10K I was targeting in the coming weeks. It was a big confidence booster for me and whatever I ran for the 5K was usually pretty close to my pace in a goal 10K race.

I guess another option would be to just race a 5K, but I felt like my controlled solo efforts worked just fine in terms of mental preparation and the recovery would be a little better than from a race.

Yeah, racing would be an option as well, but I agree with you to keep it controlled. Think I might throw one of these in next training cycle and see how I respond

For some reason, I feel like people are describing Billat intervals or Pre's 30/40 or some other name for fast reps with a "true float" rest.

Faster than tempo run?

RACE

or

TIME TRIAL

Maybe I'm old school, but a pace faster than threshold is what we called a race.

If I have a BIG RACE coming up, I tend to run a race two or three weeks before. Short of that, I do a TT.

Just another idiot on this board wrote:

Maybe I'm old school, but a pace faster than threshold is what we called a race.

If I have a BIG RACE coming up, I tend to run a race two or three weeks before. Short of that, I do a TT.

So 10x1000 meter at 10k pace is a race?