The FSU course isn't short, but it's a joke.

Getting dropped by Connor Mantz is way more difficult than anything you can put on an XC course

It’d be nifty if they came up with a standard way to report course difficulty and features. You wouldn’t need to mandate difficulty, but standardize how they are listed. Maybe that would create an incentive to make and race hard courses.

Going off all the things I’ve seen that slow down races in HS, here are a few ideas.

List the altitude with listed standard sea level conversion. Don’t scare people away from racing at altitude.

Total elevation gain and drop, accounting for all the up downs. List the expected time impact.

Give a system for rating single climb difficulty and rate climbs on courses, like cycling. Make having a class IV climb a thing of pride on a XC course.

List water crossings, hurdles, etc.

Hairpin turns or other course features that stop momentum. I know one local course that has something like 8 hairpin turns that really slow the race down.

Rate the surfaces for speed. Not all golf course grass is the same. One local “golf course” race is usually run on 3” thick grass.

the easy courses probably make it more palatable for milers to participate.

you know, should a great miler really be spending 4 or 5 months per year prepping for a slow, grinding 10k? I think this may be why Hocker eventually just decided to go pro now, despite seeming to love the team aspect of running so much.

I get what people are saying. just playing devils advocate a bit here.

WinnytheBish wrote:

It's contributing to the downfall of cross country. People are too obsessed with fast times and rankings rather than just going out there and getting ugly. Maybe add something difficult on the course for once. In high school you hear about all of these epic difficult courses and then when you get to college all you do is run on golf courses with perfectly manicured grass or "dedicated" cross country courses. Thank you Oklahoma State for keeping it real at least.

I can't respect it. Don't care if it's accurate or not it's too easy.

There have been XC races run on golf courses for over 50 years, so I don't why one at FSU would contribute to the downfall of XC. There were no hills within 30 miles of my hometown so I ran on a few golf courses and on a levee road for home meets. Maybe they were almost as fast as running on a track, but in no way did it feel like a track meet.

Flat course or not, I never thought XC was easy. Maybe you should consider running faster in your races.

Winny always saying worthless words. Ok state has golf course grass. Obviously super hilly but the FSU course has a variety of surfaces. Btw, I really think OSU is a great course.

Winny, you say the FSU course is “contributing to the downfall of XC”. Do you just make stuff up? You post some of the most foolish comments. Please enlighten us on the downfall of XC. You are special.

Well if I was able to run on FSU's course my PR would have been 90 seconds faster so you're right. Too bad.

high school xc coach wrote:

the easy courses probably make it more palatable for milers to participate.

you know, should a great miler really be spending 4 or 5 months per year prepping for a slow, grinding 10k? I think this may be why Hocker eventually just decided to go pro now, despite seeming to love the team aspect of running so much.

I get what people are saying. just playing devils advocate a bit here.

Yep that’s it. It had nothing to do with money whatsoever.

Great take coach.

lke_4:25 wrote:

Getting dropped by Connor Mantz is way more difficult than anything you can put on an XC course

Getting dropped my Mantz is actually really easy, since he drops everybody.

WinnytheBish wrote:

It's contributing to the downfall of cross country. People are too obsessed with fast times and rankings rather than just going out there and getting ugly. Maybe add something difficult on the course for once. In high school you hear about all of these epic difficult courses and then when you get to college all you do is run on golf courses with perfectly manicured grass or "dedicated" cross country courses. Thank you Oklahoma State for keeping it real at least.

I can't respect it. Don't care if it's accurate or not it's too easy.

You are doing exactly what you complain about. You are obsessing over the times.

I don't care what the surface is, for Mantz to go out and run an 8k at 4:35 pace is absolutely "going out there and getting ugly" and the same goes for Nichols of Colorado winning a 6k at 5:17 pace.

Hole Cocker. wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

the easy courses probably make it more palatable for milers to participate.

you know, should a great miler really be spending 4 or 5 months per year prepping for a slow, grinding 10k? I think this may be why Hocker eventually just decided to go pro now, despite seeming to love the team aspect of running so much.

I get what people are saying. just playing devils advocate a bit here.

Yep that’s it. It had nothing to do with money whatsoever.

Great take coach.

the money was going to be there either way.

WinnytheBish wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

There have been XC races run on golf courses for over 50 years, so I don't why one at FSU would contribute to the downfall of XC. There were no hills within 30 miles of my hometown so I ran on a few golf courses and on a levee road for home meets. Maybe they were almost as fast as running on a track, but in no way did it feel like a track meet.

Flat course or not, I never thought XC was easy. Maybe you should consider running faster in your races.

Well if I was able to run on FSU's course my PR would have been 90 seconds faster so you're right. Too bad.

PRs are for track and those are the ones that a college coach will consider.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

WinnytheBish wrote:

Well if I was able to run on FSU's course my PR would have been 90 seconds faster so you're right. Too bad.

PRs are for track and those are the ones that a college coach will consider.

Do you think the kids who ran at pre nats are being recruited by other colleges? What?

WinnytheBish wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

PRs are for track and those are the ones that a college coach will consider.

Do you think the kids who ran at pre nats are being recruited by other colleges? What?

I admire you for sticking to you guns, but track PRs are what counts and are a much better indicator of talent. If a kid was injured during his senior year of track, then XC performance will be given more consideration.

Super shoes are the reason times were so fast there, anyone who says otherwise is a nike shill

Get rid of the standard 8k and 10k distances. Make it random distances in a range. Make it between 7.5 and 8.5 for invites and conference. Make it between 9.5 and 10.5 for region and nationals. Then add some real obstacles like creek crossings, haybales, mud pits… You know real XC. Basically make the time obsolete. It should all be about place.

The 'downfall of XC' is kind of a subjective, don't ya think?

The world changes, sometimes for the good sometimes not so much. I'm with you Winnster but it's not just the easy XC courses that have changed things... it's many things.

Clearly somewhere along the line coaches decided to make the courses easier (flat & on grass)...this was so they could recruit 1500m runners for track... much easier to train for a flat fast race on grass than something difficult.

Anyhow, that's my opinion which probably isn't worth more that the cost of a free cup of coffee.

Why is everyone acting like the times from pre-Nats are absurdly fast? Mantz is a 27:40 10K guy - running 22 high for 8K isn’t anything crazy

In Nordic skiing courses have to be approved for national championship and international use. I know there are many factors for this, like width of the course, but one of them is you need an "A" climb and "B" climb. The hills have to be a certain slope and distance. Obviously no course is the exact same but it is a way to keep the courses similar. Maybe XC could do something like this for regional and national courses.

Also times in nordic skiing mean nothing, they don't keep records due to courses and conditions barring so much from venue to venue. Place finished and winning margin means more than time. Honestly that how I judge XC performances.

2020 D1 XC nats- OK State

2021 - FSU

2022- OK state

2023- UVA

2024- UW Madison

2025- Mizzou

Yes, FSU may be a pretty easy course, but it's by far the easiest in the coming years, and I think for the next 5 years national champs courses are a good mix of easier, moderate, and harder courses in a variety of places (instead of Terre Haute and Louisville).