Mountain trail races are no joke.

It's almost as if running over smooth pavement with only few meters of elevation gained over a race is way different than racing up and down mountains. Imagine my surprise. As someone who has messed around with mountainous trails, my first time gave me a new respect for the sport. In my younger years when I lived in a state with almost no real trails and only a few short hills to run. I dismissed the winners of western states, Leadville, hard rock etc as at the time I thought they're jogging slower than I do for a recovery run. But until you run up a mountain, let alone racing over them for 50k, 50 miles and beyond. People who only run on city street have no idea the difference.

sigma grindset wrote:

It's almost as if running over smooth pavement with only few meters of elevation gained over a race is way different than racing up and down mountains. Imagine my surprise. As someone who has messed around with mountainous trails, my first time gave me a new respect for the sport. In my younger years when I lived in a state with almost no real trails and only a few short hills to run. I dismissed the winners of western states, Leadville, hard rock etc as at the time I thought they're jogging slower than I do for a recovery run. But until you run up a mountain, let alone racing over them for 50k, 50 miles and beyond. People who only run on city street have no idea the difference.

Well put - and my insights exactly.

To be fair, I did attempt to prepare - upped my hill workouts and did a fair amount of trail runs and some lesser mountain hikes over the past 8 weeks. Still, that was nowhere near enough.

Similarly, I have developed a profound respect for mountain trail runners that are seeing large amounts of vertical gain and loss, especially on technical terrain. A 10-12 minute pace on some of these courses is respectable, so I can see why those with only track and road experience turn their noses up at mountain/WSER/UTMB runners and call them names - they have no idea.

Anyway, shameless and unattached plug for mountain trail racing - for all you hobby road runners out there who think you're such hot sh*t, try one of these and get back to me about how Western States is a joke.

Have a good week, all.

-Mountain Hobbyjogger

It took me 3 good years to adjust to mountain trails.

Speed is way less important. Technique in steps and downhill are way more important.

The first big mistake road runners make when they try trail running is they try to compare running paces. You try to run a trail race at a pace you think you would do on roads and you end up burning out.

Trail runners, especially ones who run races in mountainous areas are for sure underappreciated by people who have never done such things.

HOWEVER, just to be clear, even though I have run two ultras (a flat 50 miler and a 40 mile race up a mountain and back down), I do NOT think ultra runners deserve any EXTRA praise. Yes, it is not as easy as many think it is, and yes you actually had better do the proper training for one (you can half-ass your way with enough training to finish a marathon if you want, even if you run the whole thing), but really the two things you need to prepare to RUN an ultra (which I consider 50 miles and higher...50k just isn't far enough over a marathon for me to put it in the Ultra category) are the time to train and the ability to deal with boredom. A 38-mile training run on a weekend is time consuming and boring.

Of the two Ultras I ran, the 40-miler up the mountain and back down was much harder. Many people say running downhill is harder on your legs than running uphill, and while I can agree with that, it is ESPECIALLY a b!tch when you already ran uphill for 20 miles and now need to run downhill for 20 miles.

How long was the race? I think runners instinctively push uphills way too hard. You can get away with that in an XC race with rolling hills, but not when you have steep climbs that last several minutes. In my first trail race, I zoomed by a bunch of runners up a steep 1/4 mile hill, then puked a couple times at the top and got passed by the same guys on the way back down.

You need to be total body strong in a mountain race. I did just a 16 miler but with 3 crazy climbs where at times I was using my upper body to pull myself up. Also you need some agility to maneuver on technical terrain. I know the tracksters won’t like this but it takes more athleticism to be a great mountain runner than track runner.

You have not run a mountain race until you have run the Jelm Mountain race in Wyoming. It's different than most other mountain races because it's not the typical slow ultra pace spread out over 50 or 100 miles. It's all out 10ish mile effort but an insane ascent and descent. It will destroy you.

http://highplainsharriers.org/jelm/

Even the 2021 winner for Leadville Trail 100 got humbled in the 2020 version of the Jelm race.

What distance runner wouldn't think an ultra would be a miserable and grueling event? Thinking it's far less competitive than a marathon and that it's easy, are different things.

Maybe 7 or 8 years ago, knew a sub 3:15 marathoner. He went and did a local flat 50k on easy trails in something like just over 4 hours. I'm talking this is nicely groomed trails..think rails to trails type trail. Finished top 5. Heck, he might have been top 3, I don't remember.

Few months later, saw him training on those same trails. Later in a quick conversation as we were both done, he told me what he was training for and was hoping to do it faster. Knowing the race and the course he was running was MUCH harder (technical and elevation wise), when asked what I thought,, I told him "Good luck, man. That's a different type of running and skill set." and told him what to expect from the course. He kind of laughed it off like I was full of sh*t.

He finished in 6 plus hours. Saw him a few weeks post that race while hanging out with some friends..He came over, laughed and said "I should have listened to you. Holy sh*t that ate me alive" and we both started laughing.

Hardloper wrote:

How long was the race? I think runners instinctively push uphills way too hard. You can get away with that in an XC race with rolling hills, but not when you have steep climbs that last several minutes. In my first trail race, I zoomed by a bunch of runners up a steep 1/4 mile hill, then puked a couple times at the top and got passed by the same guys on the way back down.

It was only about 13km/8 miles, but it was about 5 miles of more or less continuous, unrelenting and steep rocky uphill followed by a brutal downhill for 2.5-3 miles. No real switchbacks on the downhill--it felt like a constant semi-controlled fall (was seriously concerned I'd actually fall, and saw several who did).

Legs and ankles are chewed up good, feeling it today. Lesson learned!

You're right that the 10 miles/half-marathon distance races are different beasts than the ultra, but courses get way more mountainous that the one you cited, which looks like a steady climb all on dirt road. E.g. the strava segment below is for a 14 mile race of 4500+ elevation over rocky, technical terrain, with several miles of ~1000 ft of climbing.

https://www.strava.com/activities/5418251298/overview

Regardless, 100% agreed on these types of races being no joke and require a very different skill set and type of training than road or track races, or even flatter ultras on non-technical terrain. As a former track/road runner, who has moved to mountain racing the last year the hardest thing to master is the way people fly down the super rocky downhills. Takes some real athleticism and guts, because at high speeds a fall could be really bad news. And a different type of endurance to handle the muscle fatigue of massive climbs, both up and down. It's obviously not as competitive as the track and road, but still pretty impressive. I'd recommend watching race videos (or non-race videos) of Kilian Jornet to get a sense of what this stuff is like.

Definitely recommend trying out mountain/trail racing for anyone who's feeling a little stale on the roads (or struggles to stay healthy). Just know what you're getting yourself into and do the appropriate prep work.

in case it wasn't clear, my post was responding to the post about the Jelm Mountain race, not the one the OP is mentioning (Tried quoting but didn't work for some reason)

Don't get why people feel the need to slam trail/mountain/ultra running. It's just a different animal. If you can't train on some good trails & try to race one, it might be a lot harder than you thought. Plenty of fast runners on the trails. & plenty of trail runners take down people with better road PRs.

I was about to respond the same - the Jelm race looks like a good hill climb, but is not what comes to mind when talking about mountain trail races. Take a look into the Sky Running races which include both moderate-length and ultra distance races and are focused on steepness and technical trails. La Skyrhune was this past weekend for example, a half marathon course with 5500 feet of elevation gain and equal descent and 85% technical trails with one section of 40% grade.

https://www.skyrhune.com/fiche-technique-complete/

Thanks for being this honest.

Of course most here could not run a Marathon and even less a 2:57 one.

A lot of talk here about things people don't understand.

If you run on track you have no clue what is going on in the real running world.

But keep on bashing us, it's amusing to read.

I'm with the OP.

I ran track in high school, did rec sports in college, got into road running during grad school and ran a 1:17 half marathon and 2:54 marathon in my early 30s.

Looking for a new challenge, I have moved to trail racing in my 30s. Despite being in comfortable sub-3:00 shape have found climbing-heavy trail races to be absolutely crushing.

Come to Vancouver and run the Squamish 50, if you don't believe me. 50 miles with 11,000 feet of vertical gain. Shorter but more intense is the 50k, which has 8,500 feet of vert. (Or you can do what the locals do and get the "50/50" by running both.)

It's a different sport.

Totally. A true mountain race is no joke, and as others say, a different skillset than what is required on the road. The debate has raged here forever...are there elite road runners who can transition to the trails and be great? Of course! But there are plenty of fast marathoners who do not do well at mountain races...and plenty of really good mountain racers who have attributes that make them great in the mountains, but are not as fast on the flats.

It's kind of a venn-diagram...and the world class mountain runners are guys and gals who are both fast and have excellent mountain skills.

Newbury Park? wrote:

You have not run a mountain race until you have run the Jelm Mountain race in Wyoming. It's different than most other mountain races because it's not the typical slow ultra pace spread out over 50 or 100 miles. It's all out 10ish mile effort but an insane ascent and descent. It will destroy you.

http://highplainsharriers.org/jelm/

Even the 2021 winner for Leadville Trail 100 got humbled in the 2020 version of the Jelm race.

This actually isn't very impressive compared to the Squamish 50k.

Jelm Mountain: 2000 feet of gain and 2000 feet of descent in 10 miles.

Squamish 50k: 8500 feet of gain and 9000 feet of descent in 50k (27 miles).

Squamish 23k: 3300 feet of gain and 3900 feet of descent in 23k (14 miles).

Americans are so cute.