Help with 800m training sub 2 min

I broke 2 and ran 4:04 for 1500m on 20k weeks, I ran fast, 100k of slow stuff isn’t gonna get you to break 2

Yes, I think you are right, especially if we're talking about 400/800 or pure 800m runners.

Unfortunately for me there were more snow in the winter 20/21 than the years before so I could seldom run sprints or faster stuff for a while. And there were no indoor training at the local track club because of the covid-19-situation. But I did run some fartlek for example. I think that maybe if you combine high mileage with sprints and strides you can fare somewhat well in 800m. But I will probably focus more on how to get a faster 400m time in the near future. I think sprints all year is good. Maybe less high lactic acid training in fall/winter from what I understand.

Hi

I don't know what your training looks like outside of this, so perhaps you are doing this, but I would suggest slightly less racing, I think the idea of doing tempo/threshold in xc races is cool, ive been thinking of it myself, I'm curious to know how its been for you. You might also want to add a stack of workouts, say threshold on Monday and then 200s between mile and 800 pace on Tuesday or Wednesday, maybe 8-12 of them with 200 jog walk recovery. I am admittedly no expert but these things worked fairly well for me in high school.

I suggest the 200/threshold model because for me it felt like it did a very good job of increasing speed endurance and my ability to move oxygen, which are rly important for the 800. These are workouts you would start a few weeks before the begging of your season and maintain through the middle.

for peaking at my school we often did a set of 400s maybe 3 or 4 all out with full recovery between them the week before state or our final race.

there's this video by nick willis that ive found rly helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvgbEHqL6Ko

of course your base phase is rly impt to, just lots of easy running with strides somewhere from every day to 2 times a week.

I actually ran 200m intervals yesterday. It was 16 x 200m with 1 min standing rest. Average: 32.57. Didn't run at maximum effort. Legs felt good but I think it's a quite tough workout for respiration/breathing when rest starts. Last time I ran this workout was in early June. Also did 10 x 200m in middle of June with 2 min standing rest, averaging just under 30 sec. I run 200s occasionally, all year, unless it's to cold and slippery. As you write, it's good to run at 800/mile pace sometimes.

Most XC-races are in the fall and spring. Besides running for fun/the experience I run these races to get some good aerobic training and get up the pulse. I've a max pulse at maybe 200 or slightly over. In training, I seldom can get above 175. But even in XC-races and 5 000m races I rarely reach the so called zone 5. On the other hand, I don't really look much at pulse zones. Anyway, I think it's alright to run some overdistance races as a 800m-runner (mainly 1 500/mile and even 5 000m/XC) and also 400m races.

I have watched some of Nick Symmonds videos and I have always wanted to try 3 x 400m with 4 min rest which he mentions is a good predictor for your 800m capacity. I have also heard that it's a peaking workout. It's a little bit like the 400s with full rest that you mention. Last month I ended up using 6 x 400 with 5 min rest instead (two times, see training log). I think it's a good workout, but maybe I should have run one repetition less and run the repetitions slightly faster. Maybe one on this forum can give som input on this. I didn't run so many 400s with long rest last spring/summer because it seemslike they are very hard workouts. But I have run more faster intervals with long rest this summer and maybe that's the reason that I have improved my 800m time. So I really want to try 3 x 400 etc. in the near future.

Like Nick Willis says in the video it's important to have a balance between endurance and quality. But I will probably get bored if I spend another base period with almost only easy running. I also became a little lazy after all my really high mileage earlier this year. It took a while before I even wanted to run intervals at a high effort level.

Honestly, the best advice is get a coach. Next best advice is start doing some sessions at your 800m pace.

Goodluck.

All sounds rly good man. I was gonna mention this last time, but one of my high school coaches used to tell me and everybody: "anyone can break 2 in the 800m", I think thats a really useful attitude to take, and it helped me a lot.

best

whatever my stupid username is

and I know its a pain in the ass to do base, so don't force yourself to do it, just add a small manageable amount to what your already doing, so that it doesnt take to much mental energy, and who knows, maybe somewhere down the road you'll enjoy it, if not, you'll get a but better from the base you add on top of what you're doing. Like maybe 15 minutes extra easy running a day in the off season, or at least a few times a week.

ps sorry this is the same guy as was giving you advice to do 200s, the website just won't let me post under the other username

I think what your doing is decent. Workouts like 3x400 are things you want to do when getting closer to your peak race. I like that your getting your tempo runs in races. Helps with boredom. I would add on some quick 200s or 150s after those races to work on running fast when tired but with good form. I would suggest hill sprints but you say it causes you issues. Might be something to get looked at. In the specific phase I like to start with 200s at 800 pace ex 12x200 and progressing to 6x400 as you have. Then something like 600-2x400-2x300-2x200. in the middle there I will do works such as sets of 400-200. 400 at 800 pace, 1min rest, 200 fast, jog a lap. 4 sets. When you are a few weeks out from the peak race do the 3x400 with 5min rest in sub 60 if in sub 2 shape, next week 4x300 with 5min rest same pace to slightly faster if you can. Week of the final race usually just 8x200 more relaxed as the work has been done in say 29 with 3min rest.

OP, you sound like a nice, well-adjusted young man. But when the gun goes off in the 800, you need to run on pure hate.

Thanks for the responses so far in the thread, I really appreciate it.

Some responses from me.

On coaching and peaking workouts: I sort of have a coach, but not necessarily an 800m coach.. My local track & field club isn't very big. We don't have a distance group. But there's a small sprint group that I attend. Usually there's one session a week, sometimes two (more often last year). Even if it isn't pure 800m training It's probably very helpful. Not only drills and typical short sprint stuff is included but occasionally some longer intervals up to 300m and 400m (often in a stage of some sort). Last summer I even got to try some workouts especially suited for an 800m-runner. In early August that year I ran 5 x 400m with around 2:30-rest. Average time just above 64 sec (with start blocks). After that 10 x 100m with start blocks. It was probably the toughest session I ran that summer and I haven't run anything that hard this year. But interestingly, I ran a PB of 55.00 FAT on a 400m race three days after that. And the week after that tough session I even ran my best ever 5K XC-race. So I do believe in peaking workouts. What I don't have a fully clear picture of is how often you should run these high intensity intervals with longer rest and that can produce high lactic acid (and note that maybe the just mentioned session is on the most extreme end). Not every week from what I understand. And maybe it depends on how much mileage you run overall. Can you run these workouts in the fall or maybe even in the winter (if there are indoor races?).

And yes I guess it might be a good idea to run the 800 race on pure hate or something like that. My problem earlier was that I often ran the section between 400-600m too slow and sometimes felt that I had too much speed over during the last meters of the race. I still think that 400-600m is the hardest part of the race. I'm satisfied with my 2:03 race this year though. I opened the first lap in 59 sec or maybe some tenths over.

Bump. A new year. Does any of you have any feedback or input on my recent 800m training? Or on 800m training in general?

These have been my workouts or quality sessions during base so far this year (there will be tougher sessions during spring).

-9.8 km run including 10 x 110 m under 800m-pace on track. New start at 110m line and jog rest in between.

-Sprint session. 8 x flying 40s + 4 x 110 m. 4 min standing rest.

-10 x 30 sec at 800m pace on a gravel road. 2 min slow jog rest. Some lactic acid in legs.

-Sprint session. 6 x 200 m (avg. 28.76; obviously not flat out) + 4 x 100 + 3 x 80. 4 min standing rest. Soreness in calves for two days after this. Probably because running several 200m in spikes.

-10 x 400m with 1 min 20 sec jog rest. Avg. 1:18.5 or around 3k pace.

-8 x 3 min with 1 min jog rest on a hilly gravel course. Not full effort, moderately hard after a while.

-Sprint session. 10 x flying 40s + 3 x 80m. 4 min standing rest.

-10 x 20 sec at 800m pace on a gravel road. 1 min 30 sec rest, mostly slow jog.

-7 x 1 000m with 1 min standing rest. Avg. 3:33.0 or a bit below 10k pace.

-12 x 30 sec at 800m pace on a gravel road. 2 min slow jog rest. Increasingly more lactic acid in legs after a while but could have run some more repetitions at the same pace).

Average mileage per week so far this year (miles): Around 55, 60 and 40. My longest runs nowadays are 8-9 miles. I would like to run around at least 70 miles per week at the moment but I have had some minor knee problems for several months now. If I'm unlucky I might not reach that kind of mileage during this base. I frequently do double days. Aside from running: weight training, core work, SkiErg, Gymnasium (short fast diagonals, high jump , box jumps etc.). If my knees get better I might add short hill sprints soon. Or at least long hills. Also depends on the weather. Sometimes it's below freezing point.

Current PB:s

400: 54.81 (597 IIAF points)

800: 2.03.55 (676 IIAF points)

1500: 4.23.70 (598 IIAF points).

10000: 36.28 (484 IIAF points).

800m is clearly my best event. Equally 'good' at 400m and 1500m. If my can lower my 400m time with 1 or 1,5 sec I might have a small chance to get sub 2 on 800m?

Your base training looks real good, but I believe that your competition phase training could be improved. A couple things I would change:

1. Cut the long runs and lower your mileage : jogs during the competition phase are just for aerobic maintenance, the fatigue from high mileage and long runs outweighs the benefits when you're racing frequently. I'd get as low as 60km/week when racing, no runs over 1 hour. The point is, mileage doesn't matter here, being rested does! Don't stress about missing a jog or two if it's to feel fresh for a race.

2. Same train of thought, it looks like you're peaking for a mile/3000m, not an 800m. There should be a higher emphasis on the anaerobic system and eventually long speed endurance. Workouts like 6x200m @ 600m pace with 3' rest, 4x300m @ 600m pace w/ 4' rest are good for anaerobic capacity. These should be done weekly during the late season. You also need to hit some hard sessions at 800m pace, like 600-400-2x200 or 3x400 or 2x(500-300 jog - 300) with full recovery. The reps should be run like the first X distance of the 800m, so 60.5 pace right now, down to 58.5 pace when you're in sub 2 shape.

Overall your training looks good. Last thing I would recommend is getting the pace down, go through 400m in 58.5 and close in 60.5 for a 1:59.0

Thanks for the response.

I used to regularly run 13-14 long runs (on hilly courses) but I consider skipping these from now on, even during base. I almost always get stiff legs when running more than 10 miles, especially if the pace is quite slow, and worn out knees below the knee caps (I probably had jumper's knee in 2017 and I think it has never been fully healed. But I could run really high mileage in 2020 and early 2021). I've had some double days so far this year with 13-14 miles days per day. I don't gett stiff and tired legs from that.

I'm planning to run more tough anaerobic sessions this year if I'm injury free. 200 sessions usually work fine, I think. It's harder to run 400 repeats or longer with long rest. For exampe, In my thread start I wrote that I had run 6 x 400 with 5 min rest and averaging 63.80. I actually had planned to run only 5 repeats and run them somewhat faster. Do you still get a good anaerobic session for 800m if you dont' run them fast enough? Or do you suddenly train something else? I've had some sessions where the times were even worse. One problem is that my legs often feel somewhat tired before sessions and even easy runs. It's like this even during lower mileage weeks. Usually it feels OK or good some time after I have started the session and this feeling usually comes sooner during sprint sessions. But because of this minor problem I often 'dread' 400m or 500m sessions with long rest. But maybe I can feel fresher with more strides etc. before the session.

Looking at your training that you posted already, my only thoughts are "do less". You have a ton of quality days. I would say too much. And a lot of your speed endurance workouts seem too fast based on your 400 pr. You also run very, very high mileage for an 800 runner, if you're still in the 90-100 range. All of these factors are definitely why your legs seem to be tired all the time, and why you're injured a lot.

I suggest that You train after Nick Symmonds 2012 training log. I am doing that for some time, and I have some good results.

Do 2-3 quality workouts a week. Rest should be easy running. 2 times a week after easy running You can do some max effort sprints - 30/60/100/150 meters.

Also You need 2-3 times a week go to gym

You must develop better speed.

I don't run 90-100 mileage weeks anymore. That won't even be possible during this base since I only ran 40-45 mileage weeks in december. 70-80 doesn't seem too much. I've heard that some 800m runners run that kind of mileage during winter, at least those who also are good at 1500m. But I will proably not reach that either.

I improved a lot in 2020, lowering my 800m time, but also my 5 000m time with more than one minute for example. I ran a lot of mileage that year (many 70 mileage weeks, even during summer). But I also had more sprint sessions that year and plenty of speed endurance sessions so I can't now for sure that I improved mainly because of mileage. In 2021 my 5k time was around 20-30 seconds slower than in 2020 but I improved somewhat in the range 400-1500. I will focus more on speed this year, that's why I try to run sprint sessions even during winter now. Today I ran 10 x flying 40s in the morning and did some weight training and core work during the evening.

I doubt it's a popular opinion on this message board, if your concentration is the 800, you don't really need to do more than 50 a week. Nick is probably the exception, not the rule. And no offense, but who cares about your 5k? There's nothing wrong with having range, but if your focus is on breaking 2 then you shouldn't be concerned at all about 5k. The training is not the same. I also feel like you're not hearing me when I say, do less. You don't need 4-5 quality days a week. Do 2-3. Your body will be happier.

If you want to break 2:00, and want to be more of a mid-d kind of runner, then get your speed up. You'll need to be able to hit 26/27s in training.

Hit the weights, hit the plyos, hit the drills. Have a pure speed development day once every week or two where you jump, bound, and do short sprints, less than 100m, with long recovery. I'm not sure what you're doing in the gym other than "squats, etc.", but learn or get coached to lift explosively—you might even need to put on a bit of muscle to get the speed you're looking for.

10,000m races and 15 mile long runs won't really help you in this, but on top of your speed/power development, you do need to work the opposite end of the spectrum. Instead of long runs and tempos, hit the track for longer repeats, 400m–1600m. You don't have to cut out all easy running and tempo-style work, but it can't be the star of this show.

Once you've got the speed and you've got the aerobic power to last, put it together. Slowly start ripping 200s and 300s at 1:59 race pace here and there, gradually ramp up race-specific volume while turning everything else to maintenance mode. Tempos get short and easy, or even non-existent, easy runs get slower and shorter, cut back on the hills and weights. At this point you'll just a handful of big time prep sessions like 3x400 @ 58, or 600/400/200/200 @ 1:29/58/27/27, then you're ready.

When you say 50 miles a week do you mean base or competitive season?

To be fair, June and July 2021 were months were I had more quality sessions than usual (3 or 4 quality sessions per week). And I tried to run different kind of intervals and paces. And I have never felt that 400m races for example take too much a big toll on the body. The mileage for the whole months were around 210 miles and 165 miles. In May i was around 265 miles with two quality sessions during the beginning of the month and around three later in the month.

It seems like this make sense.

How fast should the pace be during the longer intervals up to 1600m?

I don't have full focus on 5000m or 10 000m anymore, but It would be fun to race at least one time on one ore both of these distances.

During gym sessions I both use weights and do other work. I squat 2-3 times a week. 1 x 5 (70 kg) and 3 x 5 (90 kg) for example. And during the same session maybe 3 x 5 (on each leg) bulgarian split squats with 30 kg dumbbells or 3 x 5 lunges with 30 kg dumbbells. I used to do things like box jumps with dumbbells earlier too and I will try to continue with that again.

One problem that I've always had Is that I usually have sore legs 1-2 days after a gym session. One year ago and before that I thought the reason was that I could do several leg exercises in a row and with plenty of reps (like 8-10 squats). Especially bulgarian split squats has always produced a lot of soreness. It was often a real challenge to go out for a long run. Since then I have combined weight training with jumps etc and I also lowered the amount of reps. I've also tried to split sessions and do squats three times a week instead of two times. I still get a somewhat sore feeling in the legs 1-2 days after the session. Sometimes I even feel that some sets of 5 reps 90 kg squats feel quite easy and yet I still can 'feel' the session the day after.