Namibia scratched world number 1 and 3 female 400m runners for having high testosterone, but were not DSD

Weird story. I'm not sure what to say without knowing the actual T levels we're talking about.

Are they closer to "female normal" or closer to "DSD athlete level"?

Also what is she wearing?

They are XX according to who? The article doesn't explain that.

If they were Non-DSD XX women with natural elevated T, they would be allowed to compete in whatever event they want.

The 'Semenya Rule' is for DSD athletes only, not women with high T.

It's according to the Namibian powers-that-be. It stretches credulity that World Athletics is banning them arbitrarily because they are not Western (which is apparently the claim) and merely have high T.

Definitely weird. The testosterone rules, as I understand them (and have been defending them), apply ONLY to DSD athletes. I just went and read them again, and it's right there in the first condition -- you need to have a DSD.

So why did Namibia withdraw them? They indicate it's a "condition" neither athlete was aware of, but not a DSD? If it's not against the rules, let them run.

I feel like either I'm confused, Canadian Running is confused, or Namiba is confused. Maybe some of the DSDs the rules list do involve XX chromosomes, and the reporting hasn't figured this out yet? Maybe Namibia is covering for its athletes? Maybe I'm the one who's missing something?

elledrice wrote:

I feel like either I'm confused, Canadian Running is confused, or Namiba is confused. Maybe some of the DSDs the rules list do involve XX chromosomes, and the reporting hasn't figured this out yet? Maybe Namibia is covering for its athletes? Maybe I'm the one who's missing something?

I'm thinking Namibia is simply lying to draw attention to their poor victimized athletes knowing full well confidentiality stops World Athletics from revealing any actual test results.

elledrice wrote:

Definitely weird. The testosterone rules, as I understand them (and have been defending them), apply ONLY to DSD athletes. I just went and read them again, and it's right there in the first condition -- you need to have a DSD.

So why did Namibia withdraw them? They indicate it's a "condition" neither athlete was aware of, but not a DSD? If it's not against the rules, let them run.

I feel like either I'm confused, Canadian Running is confused, or Namiba is confused. Maybe some of the DSDs the rules list do involve XX chromosomes, and the reporting hasn't figured this out yet? Maybe Namibia is covering for its athletes? Maybe I'm the one who's missing something?

I went and read the rule too, and agree. But, does this mean that any a female can have testosterone above 5nmol/L as long as they are not a "Relevant Athlete" who has one of the listed DSD's?

I feel like the article must be wrong, they must have a DSD and maybe didn't know it. But I wonder how that determination was made? I'm guessing under 3.2 the IAAF Medical manager investigated likely because a test showed really high testosterone levels and then they made the determination that the two women have a DSD?

So - is it impossible to have a testosterone level above 5nmol/L without having one of the listed DSD's as the cause?

The most obvious explanation is that Namibian authorities knew they had a DSD, their coach knew they had a DSD and they themselves knew they had a DSD.

That's why they were unleashed in the weeks before the Olympic qualifying cut-off in the hope there wouldn't be enough time for them to get caught and banned. It didn't work so now they're playing this PR game for the sympathy vote.

That's more likely than 'OMG we had no idea, wow'

"Xoagub said given the girls' rapid rise and powerful physiques, they anticipated that their gender would come under scrutiny.

A first line of examinations last year to determine whether the two are biologically female yielded a positive outcome.

"These ladies have XX chromosomes, they are females and conform to all female biological requirements," Xoagub said in a voice clip detailing events leading up to the present unsavoury development.

A second test to determine their testosterone levels was recently done in Rome where the athletes are presently based while setting Europe alight.

"We received the results of that test on 30 June 2021. We shared the results with World Athletics' medical and science head," Xoagub said."

https://allafrica.com/stories/202107060526.html

trollism wrote:

elledrice wrote:

I feel like either I'm confused, Canadian Running is confused, or Namiba is confused. Maybe some of the DSDs the rules list do involve XX chromosomes, and the reporting hasn't figured this out yet? Maybe Namibia is covering for its athletes? Maybe I'm the one who's missing something?

I'm thinking Namibia is simply lying to draw attention to their poor victimized athletes knowing full well confidentiality stops World Athletics from revealing any actual test results.

This. Namibia is lying, knowing that the general public is so clueless that many will buy their excuse.

In a study from the 2011 WC samples, the findings were, in part:

46XY DSD is 140X more prevalent in elite sports than the gen pop.

The non DSD women tested had T levels averaging 0.69 nmol/L

The 4 DSD women identified (but not "identified" of course) had T levels averaging 18.3 nmol/L (!!!)

Male normal is 10 nmol/L

Serum Androgen Levels in Elite Female Athletes

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 99, Issue 11, 1 November 2014, Pages 4328–4335

trollism wrote:

elledrice wrote:

I feel like either I'm confused, Canadian Running is confused, or Namiba is confused. Maybe some of the DSDs the rules list do involve XX chromosomes, and the reporting hasn't figured this out yet? Maybe Namibia is covering for its athletes? Maybe I'm the one who's missing something?

I'm thinking Namibia is simply lying to draw attention to their poor victimized athletes knowing full well confidentiality stops World Athletics from revealing any actual test results.

If an athlete has XX chromosomes and ovaries, they can have a very high level of testosterone and still compete in any event, including the Olympics.

Also, Namibia DIDN'T withdraw those 2 athletes from the Olympics. World Athletics made them not eligible for medical reasons, so Namibia couldn't have entered them into the Olympics even if Namibia wanted to.

They are XX wrote:

Christine Mboma is ranked number one in the world and Beatrice Masilingi is ranked 3rd in the 400m. Both have "naturally high" testosterone levels but XX chromosomes -they are not DSD.

According to who? Namibia?

It's a point that can't be argued due to privacy issues so Namibia can say whatever they want about these two athletes medical situation and, if it is not correct, it can't be publicly refuted.

It's all a bunch of bs.

800 critic wrote:

In a study from the 2011 WC samples, the findings were, in part:

46XY DSD is 140X more prevalent in elite sports than the gen pop.

The non DSD women tested had T levels averaging 0.69 nmol/L

The 4 DSD women identified (but not "identified" of course) had T levels averaging 18.3 nmol/L (!!!)

Male normal is 10 nmol/L

Serum Androgen Levels in Elite Female Athletes

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 99, Issue 11, 1 November 2014, Pages 4328–4335

And another key point from this article I should include:

the authors write (my addition in brackets):

After having removed these 10 women [DSD and later identified dopers] from our study group (Table 1), nine subjects still showed T concentrations above 3 nmol/L and three above 10 nmol/L. Although six of these nine subjects came from a geographical area in which doping in female athletes is not rare, it was not possible to prove any antidoping rules violations or DSD. This is a limitation of this study.

Thus, in this study, some women DID have unexplained high T

Not strange at all. Human biology and morphology is a lot more complicated than the average letsrun poster’s chants of Caster-is-an-XY-male would lead you to believe. There are a lot of causes of hyperandrogenism in females including taking good old anabolic steroids from an early age.

Hyperandrogenism occurs in 5% of women. They aren't male, they aren't whatever you think they are. They have female reproductive organs and have XX chromosomes. Their bodies just produce testosterone at a higher level than normal for women. I would wager large sums of money that most WNBA players have hyperandrogenism.

It really is that simple. Stop overthinking.

The most obvious explanation is that Namibian authorities knew they had a DSD, their coach knew they had a DSD and they themselves knew they had a DSD.

That's why they were unleashed in the weeks before the Olympic qualifying cut-off in the hope there wouldn't be enough time for them to get caught and banned. It didn't work so now they're playing this PR game for the sympathy vote.

That's more likely than 'OMG we had no idea, wow'

Where have I heard that last line before? Oh, right, from the Burrito Track Club. "Nandrolone, OMG, never heard of it, wow."

I just want to see Christine Mboma run. Her technique and fluidity is really beautiful to watch.

elledrice wrote:

So why did Namibia withdraw them? They indicate it's a "condition" neither athlete was aware of, but not a DSD? If it's not against the rules, let them run.

Namibia didn't withdraw them WA did in their typical, racist and insensitive manner when dealing with women of color.

trollism wrote:

They are XX according to who? The article doesn't explain that.

If they were Non-DSD XX women with natural elevated T, they would be allowed to compete in whatever event they want.

The 'Semenya Rule' is for DSD athletes only, not women with high T.

+1

This article is spreading lies.