There, I said it.
Flame away
There, I said it.
Flame away
CoachB wrote:
There, I said it.
Flame away
Yeah, otherwise they'll just jog, shuffle along with horrible mechanics.
Distance? Sprints? xc? Track?
Some context would help?
What do you find in injury rates? What do you do to mitigate injuries?
Do these kids peak early? Do they progress well in the season? Do they progress year to year? Do any of them become year round runners?
I'm curious because my kids are year round runners at a small school where most kids aren't and their coach seems to do something like this. I feel bad for their coach because the majority of kids are occasional runners from other sports at best, or non-runners just trying it out for the season. He seems to do some version of Daniels with little to no base, because there is no time for a kid coming off of the couch. He does a lot of intervals and at least half the team is injured to some extent each season and about one fourth are injured and not competing in post-season competition.
EXACTLY!
We already did 3 interval workouts last week!
Intervals are GREAT for high school runners.
Today we are doing our very first fartleg! Yay!
#TrainingEnthusiasm
#Luv2Run
#ChristianityRocks
not flaming, just asking wrote:
What do you find in injury rates? What do you do to mitigate injuries?
Do these kids peak early? Do they progress well in the season? Do they progress year to year? Do any of them become year round runners?
I'm curious because my kids are year round runners at a small school where most kids aren't and their coach seems to do something like this. I feel bad for their coach because the majority of kids are occasional runners from other sports at best, or non-runners just trying it out for the season. He seems to do some version of Daniels with little to no base, because there is no time for a kid coming off of the couch. He does a lot of intervals and at least half the team is injured to some extent each season and about one fourth are injured and not competing in post-season competition.
Sounds like the coach is not very good.
High schoolers should be able to handle interval workouts 2-3 times a week in addition to hills, strength work, and easier running. If they are getting injured off of that, then the coach just doesn't know what he is doing.
Sham 69 wrote:
EXACTLY!
We already did 3 interval workouts last week!
Intervals are GREAT for high school runners.
Today we are doing our very first fartleg! Yay!
#TrainingEnthusiasm
#Luv2Run
#ChristianityRocks
Hi Shamin!
not flaming, just asking wrote:
What do you find in injury rates? What do you do to mitigate injuries?
Do these kids peak early? Do they progress well in the season? Do they progress year to year? Do any of them become year round runners?
I'm curious because my kids are year round runners at a small school where most kids aren't and their coach seems to do something like this. I feel bad for their coach because the majority of kids are occasional runners from other sports at best, or non-runners just trying it out for the season. He seems to do some version of Daniels with little to no base, because there is no time for a kid coming off of the couch. He does a lot of intervals and at least half the team is injured to some extent each season and about one fourth are injured and not competing in post-season competition.
Lots of good points on there. When I say newbies, I mean kids in their first few weeks to months of running. Here is my logic:
When kids come to me they either: A have experience in other sports which are almost always speed/power based, so their experience lends itself to doing stuff in short duration. B. Coming off the couch and a lifetime of sedentary behavior or coming off the couch with a history of vigorous play. Either way, this non athlete group is unprepared to start putting in miles.
When I say intervals, it might be more appropriate to say “interrupted running”. We do lots of stuff like, “do push ups, sit ups, burpees, then jog a lap”. Or run an obstacle course of cones, then jog a lap. We do a lot of circuit style training with theses guys as well. The circuits last from 7-12 minutes and are comprised of body weight strength stuff. We do a lot of wickets, ladder drills, and BFS dot drill. Sometimes we’ll play ultimate with a med ball doing it on a tennis court or b-ball court. I can usually sneak 1.5 to 2.5 miles of total distance on a kids legs doing stuff like this. The goal though is “athlete first, runner second”.
Early on, we do a 6 minute run for distance and base our interval paces off of that. I’ll set out cones every 50m around the track. A common newbie workout is 4x3 minutes at 90% of 6 min test pace. If a kid runs 1600m in 6 min, his workout would be 4 x 720m in 3 min with 60-90 seconds of rest. 720m would be 14 and a half cones.
The first goal for continuous running is 20 minutes non stop. Some kids do this on day one, and some take a few weeks to get there.
If a kid comes out during the summer, they will do this stuff 3 times a week with the team and the other days will be instructed to try and run at least 2 more times, even if it is only a mile or half mile continuous. By the end of the summer, most of these kids are handling 15-20 mpw and are ready to start some more standard cross country training. If the kid comes out after our big recruiting day, the timeline is a little more rushed, but we’ll still have these kids doing foundational work until after at least the first few meets (6 weeks or so)
Fall of 2019 was the first year I fully committed to doing foundational athletic development. The results were that we put 16 boys on the top 20 at our frosh Soph league finals, then at sub sections and sections we won the freshman, sophomore, and JV races.
I can’t speak too well to how well these kids progress, because we got covided a few months later and many of that group dropped off the map. The goal however, is to progress them as distance runners eventually
CoachB wrote:
not flaming, just asking wrote:
What do you find in injury rates? What do you do to mitigate injuries?
Do these kids peak early? Do they progress well in the season? Do they progress year to year? Do any of them become year round runners?
I'm curious because my kids are year round runners at a small school where most kids aren't and their coach seems to do something like this. I feel bad for their coach because the majority of kids are occasional runners from other sports at best, or non-runners just trying it out for the season. He seems to do some version of Daniels with little to no base, because there is no time for a kid coming off of the couch. He does a lot of intervals and at least half the team is injured to some extent each season and about one fourth are injured and not competing in post-season competition.
Lots of good points on there. When I say newbies, I mean kids in their first few weeks to months of running. Here is my logic:
When kids come to me they either: A have experience in other sports which are almost always speed/power based, so their experience lends itself to doing stuff in short duration. B. Coming off the couch and a lifetime of sedentary behavior or coming off the couch with a history of vigorous play. Either way, this non athlete group is unprepared to start putting in miles.
When I say intervals, it might be more appropriate to say “interrupted running”. We do lots of stuff like, “do push ups, sit ups, burpees, then jog a lap”. Or run an obstacle course of cones, then jog a lap. We do a lot of circuit style training with theses guys as well. The circuits last from 7-12 minutes and are comprised of body weight strength stuff. We do a lot of wickets, ladder drills, and BFS dot drill. Sometimes we’ll play ultimate with a med ball doing it on a tennis court or b-ball court. I can usually sneak 1.5 to 2.5 miles of total distance on a kids legs doing stuff like this. The goal though is “athlete first, runner second”.
Early on, we do a 6 minute run for distance and base our interval paces off of that. I’ll set out cones every 50m around the track. A common newbie workout is 4x3 minutes at 90% of 6 min test pace. If a kid runs 1600m in 6 min, his workout would be 4 x 720m in 3 min with 60-90 seconds of rest. 720m would be 14 and a half cones.
The first goal for continuous running is 20 minutes non stop. Some kids do this on day one, and some take a few weeks to get there.
If a kid comes out during the summer, they will do this stuff 3 times a week with the team and the other days will be instructed to try and run at least 2 more times, even if it is only a mile or half mile continuous. By the end of the summer, most of these kids are handling 15-20 mpw and are ready to start some more standard cross country training. If the kid comes out after our big recruiting day, the timeline is a little more rushed, but we’ll still have these kids doing foundational work until after at least the first few meets (6 weeks or so)
Fall of 2019 was the first year I fully committed to doing foundational athletic development. The results were that we put 16 boys on the top 20 at our frosh Soph league finals, then at sub sections and sections we won the freshman, sophomore, and JV races.
I can’t speak too well to how well these kids progress, because we got covided a few months later and many of that group dropped off the map. The goal however, is to progress them as distance runners eventually
I get it and completely agree. If I remember correctly the exercise physiology book by Mcardle and Katch also recommended intervals for beginners.
A college coach at an elite program told me he had many of his 800 meter runners do intervals because he disnt like how they jogged their distance runs. (Frankly he didnt last long at that program)
This honestly sounds like terrible training for kids. MOST kids can do 15-20 mpw in their very first week. That’s like 3 miles per day. Just run, don’t over complicate things. Send them out for an easy 2M continuous run and see how they do and go from there. If they are ready for more then do 3M the next day.
CoachB wrote:
The goal though is “athlete first, runner second”.
Could not agree more. Once again I think that CoachB is spot on.
Dovetails nicely with the thread from the new runner who found that he covers 5k faster and easier if he has some walking breaks, compared to "running" the whole thing.
a better coach wrote:
This honestly sounds like terrible training for kids. MOST kids can do 15-20 mpw in their very first week. That’s like 3 miles per day. Just run, don’t over complicate things. Send them out for an easy 2M continuous run and see how they do and go from there. If they are ready for more then do 3M the next day.
And I absolutely disagree with this, for *most* kids who are new to distance. I think CoachB's approach is better because
a) anymore, few kids have had years of daily vigorous phys ed in grade school/junior high, and the newbs will need CoachB's all-around conditioning to avoid injury and be able to absorb "real" distance training later; and
b) most beginner kids who drag themselves through even a two-mile run will have terrible slog-and-jog mechanics while doing so--nothing that even roughly approximates the genuine running motion they'll be using (one hopes) later in the seaon. At least with CoachB, when they *do* run during the course of the session, it'll be closer to something like actual *running*.
I can only share my own experience. But in high school we ran 3 to 4 interval sessions or races a week. Every season I was burned out within a month or so. Part of this was definitely the coach as he pushed things way to fast all the time. Your tailored approach does sound much much better. And I would be curious to see how I would have responded.
But looking back, I honestly wish I just ran a lot of easy miles, some strides, and raced. I think that would have produced the best results and also been the most enjoyable easy to train.
However, I can see how it you have 50 kids on your team, this might not work for most of them.
When I think back to my formative running years, this point is reinforced.
In 7th grade, I had a vigorous PE class where we built up to a 5 mile run. We ran 3 times a week and lifted twice. I was talking smack to my dad on day and he signed me up for a 10k. When I ran the 10k, my PE class had only built up to 3 miles. Although the runs were short, we ran them all pretty hard. I ran a 45:09. At this time, i was also racing BMX every weekend and probably rode a solid 40 miles a week on my little 20 incher. We also played a lot of touch football out in the street in front of my house. We’d go down to the little league vast fields and play pick up games there. In short, I was a well rounded athlete.
Going into high school, our coach told us to just start getting our mileage up. He told us it didn’t matter how slow we ran. Before I had ever done on high school race, my dad signed me up for another 10k. I ran 49:35 despite running probably 4 times the volume. Including 6 and 7 mile runs.
IMO, my progression as a runner was slowed by an early insistence on just getting in easy miles at the expense of other athletic pursuits.
Sure. There are lots of kids who think track or XC is a 3 month affair every year. If they show up with no base fitness (as many do), what else can you do except flog them with shorter, higher intensity work?
Totally agree CoachB and a great thought experiment. What's our personal philosophy with young runners -- do we treat them as developing humans, or simply take a "top down" approach from the college and professional ranks?
Without getting too much in the weeds, I think coaches tend to neglect the "generalist" approach in favor of the "specialist" approach. I still think somewhat in terms of the "specialist" as I'm still learning, but I think the foundation of a runner goes far, far beyond what we only think of as the aerobic base.
I tend to want to have a number of things working properly before trying to layer on running-specific work:
- Flexibility/Mobility (foam roller/lax ball/other massage techniques, dynamic stretching stretching/warmup, static stretching)
- Strength & Conditioning (hip/core strength, foot and lower leg strength, leg strength and balance)
- Skills & Drills (warmup/post run form drills and light plyos)
- Recovery (nutrition, hydration, sleep)
The exact implementations of each of those categories can differ based on who you talk to and what the needs are (and it can look like "play" or "work") but the core principles are the same.
And before we slam them with the classic 4-mile tempo (which many approach as just a "slower race" effort) we need to remember that young athletes are developing. They don't have a deep and wide aerobic base to draw from to perform tempo runs with ease. They may not have the coordination or leg power yet that a mature athlete has to do pure speedwork safely and properly. That's where thinking in interval training can come in handy. Maybe you just do 400's at 10K pace with a jog rest as a "tempo" run. Maybe 800's at tempo effort. A supervised fartlek instead of a speed workout away from the track. Make the warmup an aerobic conditioning activity with little to no rest between activities. Go right to the strength work after some downtime following a workout.
I personally like to see an athlete solve the problems of frequency and volume before focusing on intensity. How often can they get out the door -- 3 days? Can we get them up to 5, 6, or 7? Then how long are those runs -- 20 minutes? Can we get them up to 30 - 40 minutes? If we need to take an athlete through these steps first, during this time they can certainly be a part of practice and do workouts, but they're simply participatory in nature and do not enter the foreground until it's appropriate to start adding load in the form of focused and specific intensity.
800 critic wrote:
Sure. There are lots of kids who think track or XC is a 3 month affair every year. If they show up with no base fitness (as many do), what else can you do except flog them with shorter, higher intensity work?
They will get very little if anything from this approach
Zante wrote:[quote]
And before we slam them with the classic 4-mile tempo (which many approach as just a "slower race" effort) we need to remember that young athletes are developing. They don't have a deep and wide aerobic base to draw from to perform tempo runs with ease. They may not have the coordination or leg power yet that a mature athlete has to do pure speedwork safely and properly. That's where thinking in interval training can come in handy. Maybe you just do 400's at 10K pace with a jog rest as a "tempo" run. Maybe 800's at tempo effort. A supervised fartlek instead of a speed workout away from the track. Make the warmup an aerobic conditioning activity with little to no rest between activities. Go right to the strength work after some downtime following a .
This^
Too many people equate intervals with hard. For newbs, 4x800 at 2 mile date pace is not only easier, but more productive than a 5 mile “easy” run
CoachB wrote:
Zante wrote:[quote]
And before we slam them with the classic 4-mile tempo (which many approach as just a "slower race" effort) we need to remember that young athletes are developing. They don't have a deep and wide aerobic base to draw from to perform tempo runs with ease. They may not have the coordination or leg power yet that a mature athlete has to do pure speedwork safely and properly. That's where thinking in interval training can come in handy. Maybe you just do 400's at 10K pace with a jog rest as a "tempo" run. Maybe 800's at tempo effort. A supervised fartlek instead of a speed workout away from the track. Make the warmup an aerobic conditioning activity with little to no rest between activities. Go right to the strength work after some downtime following a .
This^
Too many people equate intervals with hard. For newbs, 4x800 at 2 mile date pace is not only easier, but more productive than a 5 mile “easy” run
I have Bob Schul's Running and Training book in front of me. A disciple of the Igloi interval method , his first workout:
4x150 (fresh)
400 meter jog
8 x 150 meter fresh
2x200 meter fresh
400 meter jog
8x100 meter fresh
4x150 meter fresh
His paces are fresh (relaxed), good (shoulders are under slight tension)and hard (approximately 7/8 speed driving under control).
Yep
As a private coach in a land far away our weekday sessions are always intervals but this is the art of coaching.
We have a great 2.5k circuit with yellow post every 100m thus a junior or newbie session would be 5-6x400m as 100m feeling good/ 100m slow jog w/100 walk between efforts.
And progress progress progress.
Our group has 5 females under 4:38 for 1500m and our guys have run 3:43 for 1500m and a few 1:50 800m guys. .
Short intervals with short recovery or long intervals with short recoveries make champions.
I'm a lucky coach that has the chance to work with very talented athletes.
coahc wrote:
Short intervals with short recovery or long intervals with short recoveries make champions.
I'm a lucky coach that has the chance to work with very talented athletes.
Maybe the athletes got lucky, because they have a talented coach. :)
Yes interesting thing, those short recoveries.
I made myself good experience with 2sets 10 times 30s on/30s off intervals at vVo2max pace. The heart will be so stressed the 30sec on that the 30sec rest is like another stress for the heart but not for the muscles.