Let’s say I can run a 5k at 5:25 mile pace. If I’m doing a 13 mile long run at 7:30-8:00 mile pace does that help me at all with endurance during a 5k or should I be pushing the pace a bit more? I don’t want to go too fast during long runs generally so I can be more fresh for harder workouts.
it definitely helps - most coaches incorporate some kind of long run into their training, either a harder one where you progress from easy pace to a quicker finish, or just a longer jog like you're doing. Which kind of LR you do depends on what else you're doing during the week. If you're doing 3 hard workouts a week (tempo/track/fartlek) , shorten the LR a bit and take take it easy. If you're doing 2 hard workouts at week, I'd push the long run a bit, something like: 5 @ 8:00, 5 @ 7:00, 3 @ 6:00 ... that's just a guess, but you should know how to pace a progression run by feel.
I used to long runs at a pretty hard pace. 'Hard' is a relative measure here, but it was about 5K pace plus 1 minute to 1:30. This was pretty tough, especially at the end, and it felt heroic somehow. I came to realize I didn't get much benefit from running it briskly. Eventually I realized I could do them at 5K pace plus about 2 minutes (sometimes a little slower) and optionally pick up the last 20-30 minutes. This approach seemed to result in as much benefit.
Yep a nice long slow sunday run has numerous benefits, as long as you're running fast during the week.
horgee wrote:
Let’s say I can run a 5k at 5:25 mile pace. If I’m doing a 13 mile long run at 7:30-8:00 mile pace does that help me at all with endurance during a 5k or should I be pushing the pace a bit more? I don’t want to go too fast during long runs generally so I can be more fresh for harder workouts.
Depends on the distance you are training for.
If you are a marathoner, doing long runs at 1 minute per mile slower than goal marathon race pace is what Pfitz recommends ( you can dog the first few miles though).
If you are doing 5k's, you want maximum freshness in a week to occur when you do your 5k specific workouts, which are VO2max/speed stuff. Not long runs.
Yes! It definitely helps. If you were a high school sophomore and during the summer between your soph and junior year and all you did all summer was run 8-9 miles at an easy pace 5-6 times a week, you would show up to the first day of XC practice waaaay ahead of 80% of your teammates. That's assuming that you already have some success at running. Maybe somewhere between the #5 and #12 person on your team the previous year.
Yes that’ll help your capillarys get strong, which allows your muscles to receive oxygen more efficiently. I’m a big believer that for the 5k and under, the effort of long runs should come from the distance, not the speed.
Yes. End of discussion. Yes.
It helps with basic capillary and cardiovascular development, as well as slow twitch muscle fiber development in a run that doesn’t interfere with your normal workouts
horgee wrote:
Let’s say I can run a 5k at 5:25 mile pace. If I’m doing a 13 mile long run at 7:30-8:00 mile pace does that help me at all with endurance during a 5k or should I be pushing the pace a bit more? I don’t want to go too fast during long runs generally so I can be more fresh for harder workouts.
endurance development happens already at a quite comfortable pace which can be held for a considerable time. A smaller increase in pace will reduce how long you manage to do this more than the benefits of more intensity.
You can´t really run too slow at all. Fast workouts are meant to be fast, all others are pretty easy.
Even at pro level, cyclists, swimmers, xc skiers, train plenty at heart rates around 110 or even less, down to 100.
I read a book by Lasse Viren´s coach, and the one line I pick up the most is "easy pace is enough" when it comes to developing the lowest area of base endurance. I think he also mentioned a HR of 100 as some kind of a limit.
This is a good talk
https://peterattiamd.com/inigosanmillan/
Peter's guest, Iñigo San Millán, is Tadej Pogačar's (last TdF winner) coach.
Most Africans and the best Europeans at 5000m and longer distances run relatively fast on easy runs, rarely over 4min per kilometer.
yees wrote:
You can´t really run too slow at all. Fast workouts are meant to be fast, all others are pretty easy.
Even at pro level, cyclists, swimmers, xc skiers, train plenty at heart rates around 110 or even less, down to 100.
I read a book by Lasse Viren´s coach, and the one line I pick up the most is "easy pace is enough" when it comes to developing the lowest area of base endurance. I think he also mentioned a HR of 100 as some kind of a limit.
As some sort of corroboration of this, I did no running at all for four months this winter, just a brisk walk (slowest around 8 min/km, quickest around 6:30 min/km) more or less every day of about 14km average. Thus Zone 1 training, occasionally up in Zone 2. Quite hilly routes, but nothing extreme. After 5-6 runs over 3 or 4 weeks, and no intervals, I ran a comfortable 35:30 for a 10km, which is essentially the same shape as I was in last time I raced.
horgee wrote:
Let’s say I can run a 5k at 5:25 mile pace. If I’m doing a 13 mile long run at 7:30-8:00 mile pace does that help me at all with endurance during a 5k or should I be pushing the pace a bit more? I don’t want to go too fast during long runs generally so I can be more fresh for harder workouts.
This is the Arthur Lydiard approach, which is pretty much the standard for distance runners, although you will get people telling you all sorts of misinformation. It's base training at slower pace and longer distance, from which you build your strength and speed training upon.
Hey,
I no longer coach but when I did, I created this calculator to chart paces based on ability. I put in your time, 16:15 for 3 miles, which means that you should be running 6:30-7:03/mile for your longer runs. My calculator is based on Joe Rubio's Fundamental Training Principles for the Competitive 1500m Runner (Linked below).
I attribute the success of many of my athletes to this calculator as it removed the guesswork from pacing. It was used by the current Mt. SAC course record holder and girls who started with 28 min 5ks and ended up running sub-18. Couple it with the training doc below and let it rip.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hp_Ebv9qeDlMm2NSstFMYCWxPVuGTz7uABifobRQ6Qw/edit#gid=0
https://img.runningwarehouse.com/pdf/middle_distance_guide.pdf
Forgotmypassword wrote:
Hey,
I no longer coach but when I did, I created this calculator to chart paces based on ability. I put in your time, 16:15 for 3 miles, which means that you should be running 6:30-7:03/mile for your longer runs. My calculator is based on Joe Rubio's Fundamental Training Principles for the Competitive 1500m Runner (Linked below).
Thank you for this. And by "this," I mean no longer coaching.
I like doing them nice and brisk early in the season during base building, sometimes as quick as 1 minute slower than 5000m pace. As mentioned above, when doing 5000m specific workouts, long runs can be slower - maybe 2 minutes slower than 5000m pace.
While I am an old, slow, low 19K runner I still run my 13 miles runs at average pace of 7:20 to 8:00. Everything I have read tells me I run them too fast but I don't run over 10 often and I enjoy running faster. I feel like my running form worsens when I run much slower than 8:30. I only run 8:30 to 9 minute pace when running 4 to 6 miles with family members. So I am basically running all my 13 to 16 mile runs close to my marathon race pace which means I am running them too fast. I typically only run 2 or 3 HM or marathon races each year. I don't use training plans for my races and just run based on how I feel. I may run faster 2 or 3 days in a row and then slower for several days until I feel recovered. My longest run for my last marathon was 16 miles which I did at marathon race pace to see if I was ready for a BQ with over 10 minutes buffer. This run took my about 4 or 5 days to recover from before I could resume my faster paced runs. If you cannot run your fast runs or works on hard days at desired paces then you may be running your easy runs too fast. My pace for a run is usually determined on how I feel and I don't have a set pace until I see where I am after the first few miles. Some runs I do not look at my average pace until I reach my turned around point on a rail to trail path.
Your pace is in the right range according to the following calculator.
https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/hmmcalculator/race_equivalency_calculator.php