I’d assume in a race like this the ideal splits would be something like 56>59. So you’d have to run around 52-53 low? 200 probably around 25-26?
I’d assume in a race like this the ideal splits would be something like 56>59. So you’d have to run around 52-53 low? 200 probably around 25-26?
When I saw just the subject of the thread not only did I think 52-53 was the 400m speed needed, but I even then related those numbers to 56-59 as the splits you would run.
I also remember when my PR had been 1.55.1X and I'm sure my PR for 400m was 52.40 seconds at the time.
Nice assessment, I think you are right on.
I'd say 52.xx is the minimum, most guys would prolly be closer to 50 flat. Depends on if youre a 5k/1500 runner moving down or not though.
FutureOldHead wrote:
I'd say 52.xx is the minimum, most guys would prolly be closer to 50 flat. Depends on if youre a 5k/1500 runner moving down or not though.
I think 52.x is a lot more common than 50.x conditional on adequate mid-distance training.
Agree. For context I had a 400m PR of 52.40 and a 1500m PR of 4.01 at the time - that put me at 1.55 flat basically.
I’d say I’m a true miler, but have been training more like a 5k guy recently. Haven’t ran an open 400 in a looong time. I remember I ran a 58 in tennis shoes after a night out with friends about 2 years ago, so maybe 1:55 is a stretch but we all have goals right!
My senior year I split 1:55.00 on an 800 meter leg. About a month before that I ran 52.4 on a 400 meter split. I was definitely strength based and not speedy with a 9:05 3200.
So I'd say you need at least a 53 second 400 if you're very distance based and not very fast, but you probably need to be more like a 51 second guy.
Bill McChesney was said to have run 54/1:54 in HS.
52 is spot on. Of course there have been outliers.
If the question is the minimum, about 56. The average is about 52. My son's college team has 3 guys in the neighborhood of 56-1:55-4:08-8:10-14:10. My son say that one of these guys hasn't gone faster than 57 in a 4x4 after only running a mile bit they can knock out repeat 800s in 2:10 without a problem.
Probably 24 and 52/53 minimum
Most guys would be 22-23 and 49-51
Run faster not slower wrote:
If the question is the minimum, about 56. The average is about 52. My son's college team has 3 guys in the neighborhood of 56-1:55-4:08-8:10-14:10. My son say that one of these guys hasn't gone faster than 57 in a 4x4 after only running a mile bit they can knock out repeat 800s in 2:10 without a problem.
56 would mean a 1.5 second decrease in pace. The smallest differential I've ever heard of was McChesney's 3 seconds and he was strong enough to eventually run 13:14.
The guys think my son is a speedster because he can run 53 and 1:52. But he is only a 14:30 guy. they sort of collide at the mile.
Run faster not slower wrote:
If the question is the minimum, about 56. The average is about 52. My son's college team has 3 guys in the neighborhood of 56-1:55-4:08-8:10-14:10. My son say that one of these guys hasn't gone faster than 57 in a 4x4 after only running a mile bit they can knock out repeat 800s in 2:10 without a problem.
Yeah I think this might be right at the limit and real outliers (56). Because an even split 1.55 is 57.5-57.5 (lets assume 1.55.0) and it's tough to imagine even an aerobic machine running only a second slower than full pace and the repeating that at the same pace. I don't believe it is possible for anyone with an all-out 400 of 57 in a relay to run 1.55 - the physiology does not work there.
At a guess, those kids on your sons team probably have much better potential over 400m (even if only 1-2 seconds) - given how solid they are over 3/5km its likely they never bothered to really entertain going after it.
I ran 1:54 in high school on a relay, and 1:55 open. My open 200 and 400 PBs were 24-low and 52-high (with a 51.x split on a 4x4), and I could also run 4:18 for 1600. I had multiple teammates run in the 1:54-1:56 range in high school, and the fastest was 51.9 for open 400. The slowest only ran 54, but he was a 9:00 2-miler so not your typical mid distance guy. I'd say based on that, 52 is probably the kind of speed you should aim for, but if you're strong 53-54 can get you to 1:55 or faster.
Yea I agree with the limit at 56 and I also agree with the poster that said most strength guys don’t really have accurate 400 times.
ohiorunnerguy wrote:
Yea I agree with the limit at 56 and I also agree with the poster that said most strength guys don’t really have accurate 400 times.
You really believe a 56 guy could run 57.5/57.5? I was very much a slow-twitch runner and I slowed down by about 4 seconds.
All these seem realistic. I’ve been working more on my endurance recently, so maybe I could get away with a 53 possibly a 54, but I think 52 would be a good goal and give me room to work.
The thing I have on my side is I’m pretty good at hanging on to a pace. I’ve always been able to kick very well and with a 800 being a much shorter event I feel like I wouldn’t be locking up as much that last 200 or so. It’s been a couple years though.
Anything specific I should be doing besides hill sprints and fast 150s, other general stuff to get that 400 time down for a more endurance based guy?
They do run a 4x4 sometimes after the mile and they take it seriously because they all want o beat each other. Probably the most extreme guy is one who has gone 13:55 but can only run 55 in the 400.
Some thoughts from a decent 400 - 1500 m runner:
1) relay splits are not worth much. Due to flying start and often hand-timed you can easily add at least one second and more likely two.
2) all these distance guys who run almost the same pace for 800 like their so-called 400 m PR did never make a serious attempt. Their 400 m PR then is something like a fast last repeat of a 10 x 400 workout or the like.
3) However, there are outliers with low basic speed. I know a subelite 1500 m runner (3:43) who had a 1:50.2 800 m but just a 52.5 400 m PR (comparable to someone running a 1:55 with just 55). But then he was able to run a sub 30 10 k as well...
4) Average 400/200 for a middle distance trained (not extremely endurance oriented) 1:55 guy would be 51-52.5 and 24-24.5.
5) I have known a 22 low / sub 49 s 200/400 sprinter who has often trained together with middle distance and distance guys in winter and was capable of a 38 min 10 k at least. He struggled in his first two attempts to break just 2:00 (ran 2:03 and 2:01). So you definitely have to learn how to run a 800 first.